Pakua

[Cheske18]

i was wondering if any of you ever heared of a martial arts called \"pakua\" and what you think of it?

[B. Duke]

Pakua is an internal Chinease system of Gung Fu. Crudely spelled it relies on deflection and evasive footwork. Low kicks and both open and closed fisted blow are used. The system has some merits, but like so many systems were quality control isnt adhered to, the manner in which its taught may vary from instructor to instructor leading some with less then proper preperation for the street. Usually its very traditional in its presentation, allowing antiquated and untested principles and techniques to be passed off and realistic and viable for street assualts. Draw your own conclusions

[CLFMak]

Pa kua is also called bagua, baguaquan, and baguazhang. \"Quan\" means fist, and is tacked onto many chinese martial arts (ex. taijiquan). \"Zhang\" means palm, which is more accurate because it deals almost exclusively in open hand techniques.
One of the best martial artists I've ever met was a bagua practitioner. Like B.Duke said, its quality of instruction can vary. I would say that it is generally more applicable than tai chi in this regard, because tai chi has become so altered for pure health reasons.
Its true traditional form is not based in untested principles. It is really based on understanding of scientific principles. The problem can eventually arise when you need to move to more realistic application. I've seen bagua trained in very realistic ways- with random attacks and defenses responding to a random attack. But this is probably not the norm. There must be a point where you stop \"using your training wheels\".
Training is often in the form of slow motion relaxed motion. One such exercise is using footwork to move around on patterns of bricks (usually an octagon to represent the eight directions). There is also slow forms training with bricks in the hands. Another is butting the body against a pillar or similar object, with all parts of the body- shoulder, back, forearms, elbows, etc. This conditions the body for being struck, and also for striking (once again, with all parts of the body). There are various weapons, but the one that stands unique to bagua is the deer antler knives, which are some funky shaped knives with two crescent shaped blades (a guy uses a pair in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon).
Traditional bagua, unlike most people's concept of slow motion martial arts, can develop the body to be quite strong. The stance training and weight lifting is very good for people into old age.

[dugfoot]

I have also it spelled Paqua. I remember reading about this years ago from a police officer in Texas and part of it was used by the Texas Rangers. What I remember the most was the evasive footwork. There is another person I know here that practices Paqua and he loves it. He's a large man, 6-4, 260# and he has studied several other arts and Paqua is his favorite.

[CaliWT]

Palm Qua is awsome!! It was created for the Chinses Imperal Guards to defend their Royals. Very effective and very all-encompasing, as it is a later period art from China, so it should include defense agains gun as well as spear, knife, sword, ect..

As said above, it starts with alot of outside circling steps around target. Then moves into centerline attacks. Also has a strong healing and medical system.

[Cheske18]

Thanks all for the inputs.

Now, I have been training Pa-Kua for about 5 years and I have my 2nd degree in Pa-Kua, and I own a school in Brooklyn, NY and I was wondering if it would be a good idea to open a Pa-Kua school in Israel? (The following link is to my school http://pakua.us/schools/index.php#s13 )

I have practiced a couple of other martial arts before Pa-Kua and didnít find them as effective in a street situation as I did in Pa-Kua.
a while ago I trained with one of my friends who is (I think) green or orange belt in Krav maga, he trains in Manhattan, and I found that allot of his techniques that he showed me, were more in a \"if he does this I do that\" situation, and the thing that bothered me about that is that in a real life fighting situation you donít know what \"he will do\" and if he does something that you didnít train a specific technique for it, I would assume he would be kind of lost.

Personally I never really practiced Krav maga, although it looks pretty cool, I would say that with Pa-Kua training I would probably beat somebody who is well trained, because of the way we train in Pa-Kua, and by that I mean, in Pa-Kua the techniques we learn are not \"if he attacks this way then you do this.

the word Pa-Kua consists of two words PA KUAwhich is in Chinese \"Eight Changes\" where there is the 8 elements of the Pa-Kua symbol and based on that there are 8 different fighting aspects, for example Orange belt are Pressure points versus blue belts which are kicks and green belts throws and sweeps, my point... when in a fighting situation I have 8 different ideas of how to approach the fight.

(I donít know if itís allowed here but Iíll try anyways... if you would like to read more about the Pa-Kua system please visit www.pakua.org )

I am Not here to challenge Pa-Kua vs. Krav maga, in Pa-Kua we donít even go to tournaments because we donít believe in it, the master is against using the skill for competition and for show, and I am not here to create any sort of argument so all I want to hear is what you guys think about it.

Please donít take this post in the wrong way, as a martial artist I respect all martial arts forms, and in general I respect a person who studies martial arts, so I expect you to treat me the same way :D

[TOPitBull]

The \"if he does this you do that\" is only the self defense aspect of Krav Maga
We have Fight Class, Grappling as well.

We are tought much more than you think.

isn't there a PackQuack forum you can promote your school on?


Another stupid closed minded view on KM, and from of all people a MA instructor!


sigh

[wim]

Yeah, but he added all the disclaimers, so that makes it ok... :roll:

[TOPitBull]

I know he said he's not trying to turn this into a \" KM VS QuackQuack\" debate, which is great, but he generalized our techniques as being \"he does this you do this\".
This obviously isn't the case, it is merely a small part of our curriculum.

[Lenny]

Iím not real sure what the purpose of this post is. This is obviously a KM forum, not that you have to take KM to participate, but what are you trying to gain by coming on here and saying KM sucks? You may say youíre not, but thatís what you are saying. My MA is better than yours, my dad can beat up your dad, blah, blah, blah............ Did you think we would all say, ìyouíre right, Iím gonna quit KM and come to your school.î? Sorry, Iím sticking with KM. Plus it would be a heck of a commute. :wink:

[CaliWT]

Man, you guys are closed minded! Did you even go to look at his link to his school? The guys Jewish and interested in starting something in Isreal, where else is suposed to get feedback from?

Whoever he played around with must have failed to point out the fight class and senerios training and only did the \"here is our answer to that\" sparring game. You should be upset with the KM guy who failed to express the other complexitys about how KM makes its desisions as to which move to use at which time.

But Cheesecake did come in here like a newbee intersted in this art he wanted to try and not as a veteran instructor. Kinda sneaky. :D

[Maestro_Ba]

Actually, I think it's good to have these kind of posts. :D This way people can compare opinions of others about different styles. There are styles that I had never heard about, and I'm glad to have known a little about them in this forum.

Of course people are always tendentious about their own style, but no style is perfect, that's why many people train several martial arts. I like the posts \"MA 1 vs MA 2\" because that's the only way I have to learn the disadvantages of either, and discover which one has more to do with me.

I like hearing the two opposite sides, and try to discover where each side is exaggerating... It was in posts like this one that I knew the existence of Krav Maga, and that I decided it was the self defence I want to learn. :)

[La Revancha]

We haven't seen that archetype on this new forum yet, but we've dealt with it before. This is the \"I'm posting initially with benign intentions so I can market my MA later\" archetype moeity. The other is the one where the \"Xth dan/stripe/sash in Martial Art Y\" wants to know how long it takes to become an instructor before ever setting foot in a Krav Maga class or fight class. As asinine as the post sounds, it unfortunately is not the last on the forum.

But cheske, if you decide to post on this forum again (they rarely ever do!), please keep in mind that there are two organized bodies that certify Krav Maga instructors in the U.S: KMAA (or KM Worldwide) and IKMA. The absence of either of these certifications is like paying for a personal trainer without a certification from the NCSA or AFAA; you instinctively think something is shady. Do you know whether the friend of yours studied at a KMAA school or an IKMA school or neither (IKMF however is prevalent outside the United States)? I only ask because the NYC area tends to be predominantly IKMA and this is the forum for KMAA, so maybe the Krav Maga you saw isn't the cup of tea that the participants of this forum are accustomed to practising.

Thirdly, I think it's common sense to participate at least in one Krav Maga class, or fight class, before posting and defending any personal opinions about it's efficacy (any instructor should know that!). Otherwise, your argument holds no water.

Finally, maybe you should talk to the Israeli KM organizations about a prognisticated success outcome of opening a Pa Kua program in Israel. It would be like opening Pa Kua in the heart of BJJ/Vale Tudo/Luta Livre/Capoeira; Brasil. Definitely get the Israeli perspective before going overseas.

and Maestro:

MA1 vs. MA2 arguments make sense on paper, but human emotions, or immaturity, always tend to turn such posts into garbage (see
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225062&highlight=Krav+Maga
)
I think it's a good idea to compare techniques and analyze them, but rarely do such mature, intellectual discussions occur, at least outside of this forum.

Basically, instead of thinking \"MA1 vs. MA2\" think MA1 and MA2. These discussions tend to be more worthwhile.

[TheIronMan]

Lets all remember that no style is better, they're just different.

Whatever worked for you in a real-deal situation will by-far be the system, style, or technique you trust the most. That's just the way it is.