View Full Version : Question about the begining of class
01-18-2005, 07:49 PM
Hi, i've been taking krav for almost a year now. I'm posting because I have totatly forgotten what \"Ke Da\" means. We say it each time we start class. Can anyone help me out and tell me ?
While I wish there were some secret meaning to the phrase, reserved only for KM classes and students, I think I recall the word means simply \"bow, or to bow.\"
I never quite understood why we say \"bow\" while we bow... :?
Is it common to bow in Israel anyways???
01-19-2005, 10:18 AM
I recall a thread about bowing in this Forum's \"previous life\". However, I think it was specifically about bowing to the picture of Imi, that is of course, if your school has a picture of Imi on a wall.
I think what John W said was along the line of, \"If you don't want to bow to Imi, then don't bow\".
But I'm unsure if his advice extended to bowing to instructors.
Bow, don't bow--who cares? It's just to signify the beginning and ending of class, and it saves class time, since the instructor doesn't have to recognize each student individually (with handshakes and the like.) It isn't a big deal either way. :wink:
for me bowing is showing respect for both Imi, founder of our martial art, and our class instructor.
01-19-2005, 09:41 PM
\"I never quite understood why we say \"bow\" while we bow\"
you are not supposed to respond when the instructor says \"bow\"....you just bow.Students saying kedaa in response to the instructor is some weird habit that americans have formed along with bowing to a picture of Imi.
01-19-2005, 11:05 PM
I have talked to Imi's student, and he said, when Imi realized poeople are starting a training with bowing to his picture, he got very mad. According to the jewish religion it is even against G-D.
01-20-2005, 07:46 AM
Yes, there's no point in bowing to a picture of Imi. I've never done it in 14 years. As I've said many, many times, this is something that has crept in as KM has grown. People from other martial arts, where these signs of respect are more common,start doing it, then other students see them do it and copy them, and so on. Don't do it. Tell your friends not to do it. Remind your instructors that we don't do it.
And there is no need to say anything when the instructors says \"to bow.\"
01-20-2005, 08:37 AM
I think that a large percentage of Krav classes are held at Traditional Martial Arts School. My is a Taekwondo school. I believe most (probably all) TMA schools bow at the beginning and end of class. Since this is inbred in TMA instructors, it is carried over to the Krav classes (maybe in not all cases).
We don't normally bow in our Krav classes when our regular Krav instructor (who is also a TKD instructor) is teaching. However. during testing, seminars, or anytime the head instructor (school owner) is present, we do bow. It doesn't affect me one way or the other - Bow, don't Bow, makes no differnence to me.
01-20-2005, 12:42 PM
Doesn't matter to me either if we bow or don't bow. Sometimes we will bow at the beginning of class (before we start stretching) or after stretching right before we begin the actual training. I do however like to bow after class because it feels like class is \"officially\" over.
01-20-2005, 03:14 PM
I was very surprised to read on the old forum that Imi probably wouldn't have wanted us to bow and that it might have even been against his religion.
In all my time training I had always thought we were supposed to bow and that we did that as a sign of respect to him. So then it turned out bowing might actually be disrespectful to him and that he wouldn't have wanted us to do it.
So, ever since having read that I kind of feel conflicted about bowing, but still everyone else in class seems to do it, so I feel if I don't people will perceive me as being disrespectful or not caring or something like that, so often I bow anyway.
I even remember one time a Jewish teacher chastised me for allegedly not having bowed or not bowed enough. That was at the end of class and we were all moving kind of quickly and I knew that I had bowed, but maybe it wasn't visible enough, 'cause the teacher seemed to get a bit annoyed. That was before I had read that thread about bowing, so when I finally read that I was very surprised, because it had never occurred to me before that bowing could be perceived as disrespectful in some circumstances and it always seemed as if you were expected to bow in class.
01-20-2005, 06:22 PM
We bow to each other and the instructor, and say what sounds like \"kiddah ost,\" the instructor said it meant thank you in Hebrew. I think it's fine, I'd be werided out by bowing to some picture!
It does not mean thank you, and it isn't a big deal either way. Focus your energy on training, and forget about this. It's a handshake--do it or don't.
01-21-2005, 02:20 PM
I just happen to be Jewish. However, I am not sure how they pronounce this 'Ke Da' phrase. It could be 'Keday' which means 'It is worthwhile' or even 'you are worthy' or 'it is worthy'.
But more likely it could be 'Kadah' which means 'bowed' or 'bent'. Noting that Kadah and Keeday come from the same root word, which means 'worthy' makes the similarity between the two words clear.
Now 'kiddah ost', I believe, is 'Kadah', as above, and then 'ost' you say?
That doesn't sound familar, but it could be 'hots', or 'ots' (pronounced like oats). This means 'execution' as in 'executing a judgement' or something like that. So 'Kadah hots' could mean 'To bow' or something similar to that.
And no, it is not common to bow in Israel. Either shaking hands or saying shalom (peace) is the norm.
Now about this bowing to an image of Imi. I clearly see why he got angry at this. Unlike in the Western world, most images are considered blasphemous. Just like how Jews never make images of Yahweh, or how Muslims never make images of Allah.
Statues are never made. Bowing to an image is seen as creating an idol. For example, Jews don't praise Moses for giving us the Torah, because he didn't. It was God, and Moses was only a messenger. Images are looked down upon is Semitic culture.
And tradition is rebuked by the Hebrew prophets, even though there is alot of tradition in Orthodox Jewish religion (notice I am not an Orthodox).
So just as Ryan said: \"Bow, don't bow--who cares? It's just to signify the beginning and ending of class, and it saves class time, since the instructor doesn't have to recognize each student individually (with handshakes and the like.) It isn't a big deal either way. \". Don't worry about the tradition or bowing, I think we all give Imi respect by learning the martial arts that he created by the skill God gave him.
01-21-2005, 04:01 PM
Maybe \"ost\" is really \"ooze\" (no idea how to spell it). That's something Amir would say at the end of class after bowing. I don't think it's Hebrew, but rather Thai or from a form of Karate. Don't know what it means, though.
In regards to the bowing, I'm blessed with a vivid imagination (God's gift to me, I suppose!), so now each time we bow in class I can't help but have that image of Imi in my mind, looking down at us, cringing and screaming \"No, no, no, no, no!!!!!\".
01-22-2005, 02:11 PM
:evil: DON't BOW!!!
WHAT ARE YOU DOOOIIINNGGGG!!!????
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