My trial class

[curious]

So I finally went for a trial class and often times, itís hard to get the true sense of something with just one class, so I would like the input of those that do Krav.

The class started out with 15 minutes of warm-up and stretching. Then I was taken aside being that I was the only one doing the class for the first time and one of the instructors (there were two present that day) showed me the basics: passive stance, fighting stance, 8-point footwork, and the jab-cross-hook combo. One thing that I found unusual was a comment made by the instructor. She told me that the reason they have a passive stance is because if she was in a fighting stance, no one would attack her. Having seen many fights myself, I always noticed the opposite; as soon as someone takes an aggressive posture, it becomes an invitation for the other to fight. Secondly, isnít it supposed to be desired to NOT be attacked? Maybe itís just her personality that she likes to fight and didnít truly mean that I should encourage attackers to go after me.

After practicing the combos and footwork, I was allowed to join the rest of the class. At this point, we practiced roundhouse kicks. While doing the kicks, both instructors approached me to tell me that I needed to pivot my ground foot more, to which I proceeded to tell them that my shoes didnít allow for a smooth turn and asked for advice. They just walked away without helping me.

The last 10 minutes of class ended with a front choke defense. They instructed us to use a certain combination for the defense: pluck, groin kick, hammer fist to the clavicle. When I went to choke my partner, I was stopped because I was pushing my partner while choking and supposedly, I wasnít supposed to push her because it throws her off balance and thus, canít do the groin kick. Then, when I went for a static choke, I was once again told I was doing it wrong because I kept one foot in front of the other, which protected the groin area, instead of having my feet parallel and apart, and that once again hindered her groin kick. It seems to me the way the instructors had me attacking is extremely unlikely, and I found it unusual that they would teach us a defense against a very specific and unlikely type of attack. The class ended there and then one of the instructors took me aside to explain the price structure for the school.

Was my experience typical?

[hammerfist]

Sorry your experience was not so great. Most Krav instructors will show you how to overcome the differences in stance made by the attacker and also show you how the plucking defense can still be effective when being pushed. They may be new instructors to the system, that i don't know. I do know that the combative striking done prior in class should have directly related to the self-defense being taught. I dont see round kicks fitting into choke from the front fitting in so well. Not that it can't be taught in that class but not so much emphasis that you say. Well don't let this completely discourage you, good KM is out there. Mark KM Hammond La

[jburtonpdx]

One thing that I found unusual was a comment made by the instructor. She told me that the reason they have a passive stance is because if she was in a fighting stance, no one would attack her. Having seen many fights myself, I always noticed the opposite; as soon as someone takes an aggressive posture, it becomes an invitation for the other to fight. Secondly, isnít it supposed to be desired to NOT be attacked? Maybe itís just her personality that she likes to fight and didnít truly mean that I should encourage attackers to go after me.
_______________________________

I would be willing to guess that this is a mis-understanding. We do practice from a passive stance often. This is because most of us tend to not be in a fighting stance all that often during the day. We need to see how the things we train in will work from a passive stance as well as a fighting stance.

________________________________

The last 10 minutes of class ended with a front choke defense. They instructed us to use a certain combination for the defense: pluck, groin kick, hammer fist to the clavicle. When I went to choke my partner, I was stopped because I was pushing my partner while choking and supposedly, I wasnít supposed to push her because it throws her off balance and thus, canít do the groin kick. Then, when I went for a static choke, I was once again told I was doing it wrong because I kept one foot in front of the other, which protected the groin area, instead of having my feet parallel and apart, and that once again hindered her groin kick. It seems to me the way the instructors had me attacking is extremely unlikely, and I found it unusual that they would teach us a defense against a very specific and unlikely type of attack. The class ended there and then one of the instructors took me aside to explain the price structure for the school.

________________________________

Again, Im guessing a mis-understanding. Sure the things you mentioned are great to prevent the counter being taught. However, we all need a starting point to begin the education. Small success added up over time becomes a big success. As far as the front choke with a push, we do have a technique for that, and honestly, it will work great against a static choke as well. It will also deal with the stance you chose to protect your groin while doing the static choke. In all honesty, the defense against a static choke even with you protecting your groin will work so long as the principles are followed.


In a classroom its always easy to point out counters to the techniques. Fact is that under stress it is all different. Training will give you an advantage.

[MaskedKat]

This reminds me of an experience I had training with someone even newer than myself. It was really tough to practice defenses, because she kept saying, \"But in real life, I'd be....\" (usually there'd be some arm-flailing and whatnot) and didn't give me much of a chance. I agree with the concept of building on small successes. Practice under ideal conditions first, and get it down, then deal with variations.

[kpalena]

Good technique is all about baby steps. There is some reality to what you are saying, but it is hard for your partner to learn techniques and take those baby steps if you are constantly anticipating and second guessing the system. As far as the round kicks...the instructors tried to teach you and give you instriction and you again second guessed them. What advise were you expecting \"pivot your foot more\"...\"how\"...\"pivot it.\"? I don't mean to be sarcastic here, but you need to stop second guessing your instructors. Krav Maga can do great things for you if you let it. Don't get frusterated or discouraged. Keep it up and you will see what I am talking about.

[curious]

Jburtonpdx wrote: \"We do practice from a passive stance often. This is because most of us tend to not be in a fighting stance all that often during the day. We need to see how the things we train in will work from a passive stance as well as a fighting stance.\"

The instructor showed me the passive stance as being legs parallel, shoulder width appart and arms to the side and made me take that stance as well. Is this passive stance what everyone is expected to learn? Because I never stand like that naturally.


Jburtonpdx wrote: \"As far as the front choke with a push, we do have a technique for that, and honestly, it will work great against a static choke as well.\"

Why not teach that right away? Doesn't it bother anyone that they are expected to defend against an unrealistic attack?

[dkolb]

curious, first of all, you are learning SELF DEFENSE, which by definition means that someone else gets to go first. you are responding to an attack already in progress. the passive stance is not an actual 'stance' but a lack of a stance. its how you normally stand when not expecting anything in particular. this is not only more realistic, but will show that KM works when its most important, in a position of disadvantage, or when you are late.

you need to have a little patience. it was your first class and im guessing there were other beginners in there as well. you need to learn the basics first. not everything can be taught in one class. choke from the front is a basic technique that gives beginners a sense of what KM is about and how useful it can be. the choke with a push IS a different technique and DOES work in place as well. why not learn it right away? because its not reflexive - it has to be learned and practiced. unlike the choke/push, the pluck turns your body's natural reaction (grabbing the hands around your throat) into a something more effective. im willing to bet your instructor mentioned that but you were probably too wrapped up in attacking in a way that screwed your partners chance of executing an effective techinque against you.

give the system a chance or move on to something else that will teach you all you need to know in an hour.

[kpalena]

Again, Patience. Stop second guessing the system. Saying that something is unrealistic implys that you know better than your instructors. We both know that is simply not true. Trust their knowledge, baby steps, baby steps, baby steps. There are a ton of techniques to learn and each one builds on another. You need to learn choke from the front so that you can learn choke on the ground, and hair grabs and all the stuff that you don't have the first clue about now. Be patient, trust your instructors, don't give up keep training, and thank us later.

[Giant Killer]

Yes, patience. You can't expect to learn everything at once. There are dozens of different techniques and you need to take it step by step.

KM is teaching self-defense. They always tell us that the difference between self-defense and a fight is that in a fight you know that you are fighting, in self-defense you are surprised and only have time to react. You are at a disadvantage and have to fight out of that position of disadvantage.

That's the reason for the passive stance. If you are attacked and don't see it coming, you won't have time to get into a fighting stance.

As for the choke, the reason the instructor didn't want you to push is that you will have to do a different technique for that situation. At that moment in time, you were working on another technique, the one for a choke standing in place. I'm not sure why you are saying a choke without a push is unrealistic, it could happen and so that was the technique for it. There is a variation in which you can pluck with one hand and punch with the other in case you are unable to do the groin kick, but it seems as though most attackers would stand squared up to the person they are choking and not be in a type of sideways stance with their leg blocking their groin.

As I've mentioned on the other thread, round kicks are a good tool to have. They'll take some time to learn, that's why they work on them a lot in LV1.

Again, deep breath, patience, even in BJJ you learn one move at a time and are not supposed to resist at first, so that your partner can learn when and from what position to do a certain move. If you stick with KM, in time, you'll learn all you need to know.

_________________
Giantkiller

[Strictly Street]

Several things:

A passive stance is anything other than a full on fighting stance. To me this is anything from leaning against a wall with the legs crossed, arms folded, hands in the pockets or whatever. It is not a specific stance. Unfortunatly my instructors don't seem to realize this but hey, I do and that is what counts. To answer your question:

\"The instructor showed me the passive stance as being legs parallel, shoulder width appart and arms to the side and made me take that stance as well. Is this passive stance what everyone is expected to learn? Because I never stand like that naturally. \"

I learned the same silly stance. I can see the value in using it from a defensive position, but attacking from that particular stance is unatural and unlikely.


People replies here about learning the techniques step by step are right on. It is a progession. It is also what makes Krav more of a martial \"art\" - what you asked about in your first thread. It is all about learning and perfecting techniques level by level. Purely physical. Unfortunatly this gets in the way for learning self defense, but you will get excellent physical tools added to your arsenal.

As for the comment about instructors always knowing better...that's a laugh, had me in stiches. My instructors are really nice people and superb athletes, but they don't know the first thing about self defense, and I mean that litterally. I don't care, because *I* know about self defense, and am able to properly incorportate what I learn at Krav into my overal arsenal. I am not there purely to learn self defense, I am there to learn certain physical tools, which is what Krav focuses on. That is also what my instructors know a hell of a lot more than I do about as well. Self defense, as I went on about in my first few posts in your first thread is all about behaviour and strategy.

I think it is really good to question instructors in general, it tests them, and gets you thinking. It also helps you understand what you are learning, more often than not they have a good answer for you. It also shows that you are able to think for yourself. I don't know much about the training process for instructors, but the requierments seems purely physical. I do not beleived they are trained in the statistics of fighting, or in human nature and behavioural patterns of fighting. Mine certainly are not. The strengths of Krav are in the physical, particulary striking tools. The rest, for the most part is junk. You are on the right track to understanding self defense. Once you undertand it, you can get more out of Krav by recongizing the good stuff and holding on to it, and discarding the bad stuff.

[curious]

kpalena wrote: ìStop second guessing the system.î

Iím not trying to second guess the system. Iím trying to understand it 1) before putting in a lot of money into it (which I donít have as a full-time university student) and 2) while I am learning it if I do sign up.

I also want to evaluate the instructors at the particular school I checked out because it was mentioned in another thread that the quality of the learning depends on the instructors and that some are better than others.


Giant Killer wrote: ìI'm not sure why you are saying a choke without a push is unrealistic, it could happen and so that was the technique for it.î

I have been choked in the past by someone with the intent of harming me. I was shaken and pushed back until I tripped. The way I choked my partner in the trial class was without the speed and ferocity I faced.

Iíll put it this way, Giant Killer. Imagine you are the bad guy. You really want to hurt somebody, perhaps even kill them, and you decide to choke them. How would you do it?

[MaskedKat]

Some thoughts on the passive stance.... no, it's not really \"natural.\" At least, not before learning Krav. In the same way that I no longer walk hunched over with my eyes on my feet, I don't stand in line (or whatever) the same way. Actually, as I've thought about this, I think my natural \"standing around\" stance now is not too far from the passive stance. It's really easy to go from passive stance to fighting stance. Not so easy to go from lounging against a wall, hands in pockets, to fighting stance.

Remember, part of self defense is about situational awareness.

[Ryan]

Funny, SS, for a guy who seems to know so much, you'd think you would know the difference between self defense and self protection. One is reactive. One is proactive. The things you describe here are related to self protection. Behavior, psychology, pre-contact cues, line-up punching, tactics, pattern interrupts, action triggers, etc. are not what KM focuses on--it's a self defense system, and self defense is something KM does very well. I don't see claims that profess it's anything other than that.

On a side note, I don't like the term \"passive stance\". To me, \"passive\" has a negative connotation, as it relates to what we do, that we shouldn't look to perpetuate, and \"stance\" is a misnomer (it's not really a stance.) I prefer to simply say neutral.

[OldKravDude]

Wow, Strictly Street and Curious, it sounds like you have just had instructors that haven't been at it very long. Learning the krav system with newer instructors, to me, is still better than learning some showy eastern martial art from a grand master. You'll still have more self defense skills for the real world.

Curious, others have made good points in this forum. Passive stance is any way you happen to be when surprised by an attack. looking down, leaning, picking your nose....it is all good. I never tell someone how to be an attacker. They may be doing something that is totally crazy (choking with their legs crossed) but there is always a chance the the bad guy will do something unexpected. Learn principles, not techniques. If you learn 1000 defenses you'll be attacked by number 1001 (a John W. quote).

Street, to come on to Krav's forum and say it is mostly junk is just disrespectful. You sound like an expert and should know better. If you have instructors that you are better than, good for you. You are in the vast minority. I would think if you learned from Darren Levine, John Whitman or Michael M., you would think very little of Krav is \"junk\". I've seen a lot of systems and can assure you that Krav, the way it is meant to be learned, is the best street self defense available for the average person.

[Strictly Street]

I didn't mean to say Krav is mostly junk. I don't think it is and I not only enjoy it, but see it madatory training for me to be a complete fighter. I actually say the physical stuff is excellent, and that Krav is mostly physical. This should be interpreted as Krav is mostly good. What is \"junk\" is subjective to the individual student. OldKravDude, you sound like a better instructor than most. The fact that you realise principles are more valuable than individual techniques is something I rarely see in instructors. My instructors have only been doing Krav a few years, and their backgrounds are purely athletic. That is reflected in the way they teach. They teach Krav like a martial art, exactly like one. I agree with you about Krav vs eatern MA.

Where I feel KM lacks is in the delivery of the techniques. Ryan seems to agree with me that KM teaches physical, but not the pre-physical stuff. We disagree on the definitions of self defense and self protection, that is all. But I do hope we can agree that having great techniques is of limited value if you don't have knowledge on when or how to deliver them. I see self-defense as having 4 general phases (1) avoidance and awareness (this is the proactive stuff) (2) verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to physical (3) physical (4) aftermath.

Krav focuses on (3). To an extent the first is common sense. The second is the delivery system for (3). This is were you size up the situation and move to a more strategic postion relative to your attackers and the surroundings. While doing this you adopt a stance that lets you protect yourself and strike premtively. The thing here is to adopt this stance without letting the attcker realize it. Let their guard drop and ego rise, it is all to your advantge. It is also the time when defusing tactics can be applied. The 4th phase is dealing with the law, personal emotions and injury.

I wish KM taught (2) and let us pratice all the physical stuff in situations where at least the 2nd phase is addressed. In 100% of situations (3) depends on (2). This is someting most people, instructors included seem to know little about. Maybe that is why it is ignored.

[OldKravDude]

Street, I am impressed with your response and I thank you. Too many people on this forum forget to talk to each other like adults. I was offended by your comment about junk but tried to give a calm response.

I must say that my original Krav instructors (Darren, Michael, John, Marni, Jarrett, etc) were much better than me with awareness, seeing problems and heading them off, etc. These are very valid and people should go out of their way to learn these things. I guess, as far as I am concerned, I have a student for maybe two classes a week for a total of two hours. I want to teach as much krav as possible in that time to have them be able to survive an attack. This is not only physical - how to fight, the techniques for getting out of chokes, etc. but about attitude in a life or death situation (being aggressive, never stopping, continuing to fight no matter how tired, hurt, etc.) In my mind I would hope they would read about the other parts and go to seminars, etc. because my time with them is so limited.

Again, thanks for the positive response!!

[dkolb]

street: lemme get this straight, you are saying 100% of physical self defense situations depend on \"verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to\" it? what about gun in your face from the guy you didnt see while you were walking to your car (yes, i can already hear you yelling number 1!, number 1! - sometimes avoidance and awareness are impossible, i hate to break it to you) i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.

im glad you have all 'situations' broken down so neatly for yourself. unfortunately it doesnt always work out that way. KM is for when the s**t hits the fan - for whatever reason. your instructors are there to teach you the tools to help you walk away from it when it does.

[Strictly Street]

street: lemme get this straight, you are saying 100% of physical self defense situations depend on \"verbal and behavioural agreession that leads up to\" it? what about gun in your face from the guy you didnt see while you were walking to your car (yes, i can already hear you yelling number 1!, number 1! - sometimes avoidance and awareness are impossible, i hate to break it to you) i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.

im glad you have all 'situations' broken down so neatly for yourself. unfortunately it doesnt always work out that way. KM is for when the s**t hits the fan - for whatever reason. your instructors are there to teach you the tools to help you walk away from it when it does.

I know everything can't be avoided. Phase (2) is not only verbal/behavioural. It is everything from the time you are targeted as a victim to the time you physcially retaliate. Ambush attacks, sucker punches or whatever are not going to have verbal warnings signs. I like your example with the gun. It is a realistic scenario. Lets look at it in detail. It is not wise to immediatly retaliate physically. The situation needs to be assessed. Is it a cop pointing the gun at you (mistaking you for someone else)? Is it a thug with buddies around who will take you out? Understand your situation before committing to a physical retaliation. For example, calmly raising your hands SLOWLY is a defensive action that will not alarm the attacker. This \"scared-like\" action will make you seem passive and victim-like to the attacker. His guard will drop as he is not expecting a fight. At the same time, your hands have just been strategically placed closer to the gun ready for a disarm. This only takes a couple seconds and lets you asses the situation while gaining the tactical edge for the physical stage.

[Ryan]

I actually agree with DK and SS. I think where SS is missing the point is, KM is NOT a self protection system--in my opinion. KM is about performing from positions of extreme disadvantage. I agree that behavioral delivery systems (fence, passive stance, etc.), from a self protection standpoint, are vastly important. However, even monkeys fall out of trees, and that's what KM is about--when the proactive/protection side fails.

Maybe we're focusing too much on semantics, but I believe that fighting, self defense, and self protection are different things.

[Strictly Street]

i know personally a woman who, while doing a home visit as a case manager, knocked on a door and was greeted with the door flying open and her client stabbing her repeatedly with a knife. unprovoked. no warning. no history of violence.


I forgot to comment on this example. Since the attack is not only an ambush, but immediatly and continually physical (and life threatening) you gotta go straight into a physical defense. Nothing much to lose. It is however unlikely. No principle or strategies, no particular technique will save you, just gut instinct fighinting back. Most people (like you) don't seem to realize that most situation have a pre-contact phase that lets you defuse and strategize the best defense. Going straight to physical in your gun example is something I am afraid too many people might try, or think is the best option.

[OldKravDude]

Again, this is a pretty calm, rational discussion and that's great.

Street, I guess you are just coming from a totally different perspective - and that doesn't make you wrong. Look at Krav's history. It is all about Israel and how many enemies they have. It is all about reacting right away with the thought of not stopping until the other guy is down and done. It is the way their country thinks and the way Krav looks at problems. They have to think aggressively, that is why they are still a country.

The handgun topic is a good example. When Darren taught us he had one of us in front of the class to give us all a good lesson. He said there is no way that you know the difference between (he would stick the gun in the students face) \"give me your money\" AND (again gun raised and stuck in students face) \"boom\". How do you know this guy isn't going to raise his gun and pull the trigger before you can assess or question. The whole point was REACT. Soon after this lesson I heard of a Columbus firefighter's son who was shot and killed just like that, a guy stuck a gun in his face and immediately pulled the trigger. Krav is all about reaction. React quick and go until one of you is unconscious. This is their philosophy. This is their history.

My answer is it's an Israeli mindset. Nothing wrong with your thoughts or questions. Doesn't make us right and you wrong.....this is just the way it is.

[Strictly Street]

I like where this discussion is going (although we are a bit off topic). I understand the mind set behind KM, and I expressed that in my first posts in the thread (Is KM a MA?) a few weeks back. My concern was that this mindset might not be the most ideal or appropriate one for the average citizen in the average situation. We all agree KM is a \"worst case scenario\" fighting/SD system. My opinion is that being prepared to deal with a \"worst case scenario\" fight does not really help prepare you for the typical situation you are likely to deal with on a day to day basis. I think it is better to start off not only being more all-round, but also is learning to defend against common situations rather than the least likely extreme ones. Personally, I want both, it is just a matter of which order to learn it.

Again, all subjective, but KM (and some people on this forum) advertises itself as being more all-round/complete and applicable to the avergae citizen than I think it really is. It is more specialized, and at that, I think the best thing out there for what it does. But it needs supplementation for anyone that wants to be truly complete. My first 3 posts on the forum outline how I see KM as a system.

[curious]

Great posts guys, and keep them coming as they are interesting.

As for myself, I concluded that Krav is not what I was looking for. I gave it a chance and went to a trial class, but I see that it wasn't good quality instruction, so they will not get my money or time. As well, KM seems to be lacking a lot based on this recent discussion and Strictly Street's first post on my first thread, and I see now that he's not the only one that see this, so I know that his opinion is not based on his particular school, but on the system as a whole.

Ryan, I never heard of \"self-defense\" and \"self-protection\" being two seperate things. After reading your post, I even decided to look it up and the general concensus, as well as it is described on wikipedia, they are the same thing, but with different words used. The marketing for Krav Maga is certainly misleading.

[dkolb]

\"I like your example with the gun. It is a realistic scenario. Lets look at it in detail. It is not wise to immediatly retaliate physically.\"

and how do you know this? who are you to say what is 'wise' in every situation? i think that the reality of that scenario will not exactly leave you with the ability to fully 'understand the situation' in the moment. if you can stay calm and rational with a gun in your face, more power to you. im guessing youre what, level 1 or 2 maybe? have you worked on gun defenses yet? if you had, youd know that if you raise your hands and do not go for the gun defense, you have lost a huge opportunity to use that 'expected' movement to your advantage. you hands are now directly in the gunmans field of vision (as opposed to coming up from underneath) and his ability to react to your movement is greatly enhanced. i wish you the best of luck with your disarm from that position.

\"Nothing much to lose. It is however unlikely. No principle or strategies, no particular technique will save you, just gut instinct fighinting back. Most people (like you) don't seem to realize that most situation have a pre-contact phase that lets you defuse and strategize the best defense.\"

are you serious? no particular technique will save you? KMs principle of defending and countering a knife is exactly what CAN save you. what YOU dont seem to want to admit is that street crime is not often something that can be stopped and analyzed in the moment, where you can 'defuse and strategize'. KM is designed to short circuit an oncoming attack with an aggresive counter offensive. period. if you have the opportunity for defusing and stratagizing, you should have no need for Krav Maga.

[KMSF]

Curious, If I remember right you said you were a college student - perhaps you could look into an on campus source and check out the classes available for self defense. Someone there may know Krav Maga also and usually classes for self defense on a campus are around 30 to 50 bucks a month or less. And you find people you can hang with and practice with in off times for free. Post a flyer asking for any Israeli students to call you for information on Krav.... \"Hope this helps\"

[Giant Killer]

As for \"strategizing\", we do learn certain things, such as potentially asking the gunman a question, such as: \"What do you want?\", then, when his mind is preoccupied with the answer, it might be a good moment to strike.

We are also told to give the person what he wants if it appears that will solve the situation and he will just take it and leave.

I know Darren mentioned that if the attacker tries to remove you from the initial crime scene, even if it's just a few feet to a smaller street or alley, your chances of getting killed rise dramatically, so, in that case, at least statistically, you might be better off trying to go for a defense than to comply with his demands.

Those are just some things that came to mind, showing we do talk about these issues.

_________________
Giantkiller

[Strictly Street]

Most commonly street situations do give time to assess the situation and strategize. The ones that don't are the least common. What are typical situation....?

Ego jocks bullying you in front of their friends or girlfriend (far and away the most common)
Road rage
accidentally bumping someone who is in a bad mood
mistaken identity
etc


Typical bullying situations start with a high level of verbal aggression and intimidating body language. The attackers may circle you and close distance without actually being violent until they are in your face. First contact may be a shove or lapel grab. This is because they are not psychologically ready to fight yet and are trying to feel you out and get you to resist or shove back. This is where being able to manipulate human behavior pays off. It is also a situation where immediately going pre-emptive is dangerous because of multiple attackers. Maybe when close enough they will sucker punch you. If your hands are up in a passive stance you will be able to react and block the punch without thinking. Hands at the side make it way harder. If you assume the fighting stance while being approached you will escalate the level of violence encouraging them to continue with the attack. Also think about how you look to bystanders. Do you want to look like a victim defending yourself (hands up, passive stance), or someone accepting a challenge to fight (full on fighting stance)? The first is legal, the second is illegal.

As for the gun and hand thing: The hand is quicker than the eye in close range. Having the hands up reduces the distance they need to travel. Hands at your side are in your attackerís field of view (peripheral vision) and bringing them up from the sides is telegraphic. Experiment and see.


I am not saying what we learn in KM is bad, or inappropriate, I am just saying that it is not the solution to the most common threats. Learn it, but try to understand when and where it is appropriate to use.

[Strictly Street]

Giant Killer: those things you mentioned are exactly the sorts of things I am talking about. Talking to the gunman and striking while he answers is an example thought process intruption. You clearly have better KM instructors than I do. I have to learn all that stuff on my own from DVDs and books. From many others posts here, it seems those sorts of tactics are not commonly incorportated in KM training. Really goes to show how the quality of intruction varies.

[Giant Killer]

If you find yourself in an argument, they wouldn't tell us to stay in the \"passive stance\", but to put one leg forward, the other back, hands up, basically being in a fighting stance, but not being aggressive, instead acting passively, putting the arms out there but maybe saying \"I don't want any trouble\" or the like. You act passive/defensive, but you are ready to defend if need be and ready to counter.

The way we bring the hand up for the gun defense (not in a wide looping motion, but more from \"underneath\" the gun, straight up to the barrel) it does make it hard to see. We practice it sometimes with the \"gunman\" (partner), pulling the trigger as soon as he sees the motion. Often, even when he knows it's coming, he can't see it. Besides, as dkolb mentioned, you can use the fact that he expects you to put your hands up to practically make the same motion, but as your hand moves up you grab the barrel instead. Virtually impossible for the gunman to tell the difference.

_________________
Giantkiller

[Strictly Street]

Giant Killer: the defensive stance you describe is exactly what I am talking about. A stance that gives you access to all your weaonps and defenses without looking like it. Bascially a more relaxed fighting stance with the hands open facing outwards. Your school sounds a lot better than mine to be teaching that sort of thing.

[curious]

There seems to be absolutely no consistency among Krav Maga schools. There is obviously no point in looking for a KMAA certification as it seems that instructors just teach whatever they want anyway whether it's \"krav maga\" or not and call it Krav because they have the certificate from KMAA. :roll:

[dkolb]

seriously SS, why are you taking KM? you obviously are convinced you know better than all of those who have developed the system over the years and those who have used it with success as well. and you continue to assume you know the nature of 'most common street situations...'. i hope for your sake you never truly know how wrong you could be.

and as for this utterly uninformed assumption:
>>\"As for the gun and hand thing: The hand is quicker than the eye in close range. Having the hands up reduces the distance they need to travel. Hands at your side are in your attackerís field of view (peripheral vision) and bringing them up from the sides is telegraphic. Experiment and see.\"<<
when you do eventually get to learn KM gun defenses - level 3 in case youre interested - you will see how foolish you come off now.

[OldKravDude]

Curious, it is sad that there are some intructors that aren't as strong as others but you get that in anything. I can tell you that Krav Maga Worldwide is very picky on who they allow into instructor training and they do flunk out a large percentage of students in the instructor course. The training is awesome and is the same for everyone. Still, a person can get through the training and teach differently than they were taught. Krav tries to keep an eye on their instructors but there are a couple of hundred schools across the US now. There are growing pains but for self defense for the average person it is the best in my opinion.

Street, Krav is what it is. It is the self defense system of the Israeli Defense Forces. It's main strength is that it takes the average person from no self defense experience at all to being able to defend themselves effectively quicker than anything else. To make statements that they don't know self defense or that it isn't practical is laughable. The Israeli's use this stuff all the time, it is the most battle tested system in the World. Again, they aren't nearly as worried about the psychology of an attacker or trying to figure a way out of a situation as they are in REACTING, getting rid of the danger, giving a simultaneous counter attack, beating the attacker into the ground - and then asking questions or worrying if the attacker was abused in child hood, etc. etc.

Street, I'm done here. Krav is to take the average person from zero to defending themselves quickly. If there is better systems for what you are looking for go in peace and be safe.

[La Revancha]

\"Ryan, I never heard of \"self-defense\" and \"self-protection\" being two seperate things. After reading your post, I even decided to look it up and the general concensus, as well as it is described on wikipedia, they are the same thing, but with different words used. \"

This is where I tuned you out, man. HUGE difference. Start with Geoff Thompson's work to see the difference.

[Ryan]

Yeah, but Wikipedia said... :roll:

[curious]

\"Ryan, I never heard of \"self-defense\" and \"self-protection\" being two seperate things. After reading your post, I even decided to look it up and the general concensus, as well as it is described on wikipedia, they are the same thing, but with different words used. \"

This is where I tuned you out, man. HUGE difference. Start with Geoff Thompson's work to see the difference.

I looked up Geoff Thompson (btw, thanks for the name. Seems like an interesting source of information) and it looks like he doesn't see the difference either.

\"Whilst some situations actually start at a physical response (in which case you either fight like a demon or you get battered), most are preceded by some kind of pre-fight ritual and introductory dialogue; even if it is only the uninspiring 'are you looking at my missus?' The Real art of self-defence is not in bringing the affray to a messy conclusion with a practised right cross, rather it is in spotting the attack ritual in its early stages so that a physical encounter can be avoided.\" -Geoff Thompson
http://www.geoffthompson.com/detailArticles.asp?id=21

... so I still don't know why you guys see a difference. Besides if Krav's \"self-defense\" is for the general population, shouldn't they communicate in terms the general public understands? Even the dictionary says 'defense' and 'protection' are synonyms.

But of course, the way you choose to use the english language is right and the rest of the english speaking community, including english scholars are wrong. :roll:

I see where this is going and it's sad.

[Ryan]

Remind me again, what's your fighting/martial arts/empirical/LEO/self defense background?

You're right, it is sad. We can argue semantics all day, but it won't change the fact that you are speaking without any real experience. I think it is best you don't go back to the KM school. Hell, I don't know why you'd go to any school. You already know everything.

SS, DK, OKD, etc., enjoyed the discussion. Take care, all.

[glenngordon]

\"There seems to be absolutely no consistency among Krav Maga schools. There is obviously no point in looking for a KMAA certification as it seems that instructors just teach whatever they want anyway whether it's \"krav maga\" or not and call it Krav because they have the certificate from KMAA.\"

Curious,

I'm a little \"curious\" as to how you came to this conclusion. Is it from the different points of view on this forum? Or have you personally trained at a bunch of different Krav Maga schools?

Glenn

[curious]

\"There seems to be absolutely no consistency among Krav Maga schools. There is obviously no point in looking for a KMAA certification as it seems that instructors just teach whatever they want anyway whether it's \"krav maga\" or not and call it Krav because they have the certificate from KMAA.\"

Curious,

I'm a little \"curious\" as to how you came to this conclusion. Is it from the different points of view on this forum? Or have you personally trained at a bunch of different Krav Maga schools?

Glenn

From the people's posts. I don't know anything about Krav Maga, so I came here to learn about it. People here seem to have been getting different experiences based on their school.

[OldKravDude]

Don't jump on Curious, she had good questions and just wanted help!!

Curious, if you want to e mail me at kravdude@msn.com please do and let me know where you are located. I can look into schools for you. I hate to see anyone leave Krav with a bad taste in their mouths. I've seen it transform people and I still believe that for real self defense there is nothing better.

[glenngordon]

Old Krav Dude,

Not sure if you are referring to my post, but I'm not \"jumping\" on curious...Yet. I agree that the questions were very valid. What didn't sit well with me was the conclusion that Curious came to about our organization after some brief activity on this Forum.

Glenn

[jjbklb]

..\" have been choked in the past by someone with the intent of harming me. I was shaken and pushed back until I tripped. The way I choked my partner in the trial class was without the speed and ferocity I faced...\"


You want to learn to play the piano,so you go to a concert pianist who you see playing a very complicated piece of music.\"I want to play like that\",you say.

He starts to teach you the basic chords,& you are frustrated.\"Good piano-playing isn't like this in real life.I'd feel like a baby playing like this with someone else.\"

He replies,\"Learn the basic chords.when you can comfortably move through them;i'll introduce some interesting variations that will impress the audience.\"

Same with learning self-defense techniques.

By the way.If you are paired with another beginner,you shouldn't be flying through chokes,punchs,or throws.It isn't fair to your partner.He/she needs to develop confidence in performing basic techniques.That can't be done if your partner goes overboard in the attack.