Defense against bag over head from behind?

[Guerriere]

I've been wondering about this ever since it hit the papers:

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Arlington?tid=informline)Arlington (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Arlington?tid=informline) police officers said they are looking for a man who tried to put plastic bag over the heads of at least three women as they walked alone in the (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Arlington?tid=informline)Rosslyn (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Rosslyn?tid=informline)-Ballston corridor. Each time, the woman fought him off, police said. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Arlington?tid=informline)

No incidents recently, so maybe the bad guy has switched tactics, or maybe he's moved to some other city... or maybe he's just waiting for his next opportunity.

I imagine it would have to come from behind, or at least that would be the most challenging scenario. Could be a pillowcase or other kind of bag too.

With a grocery bag you could probably rip at it to get breathing space. At that point I imagine you'd just forget about the bag unless the rest is being used to strangle you. What about a bag that's too strong to give way if you try to rip it?

[SkaldGrimnir]

Now I have not gone through any classes yet, but from videos I've seen, I would imagine that you would probably be best to use a defense like the one presented for a garrote. My impressions, however, are theoretical, not practical as yet.

The trouble with a bag is that it often will slide beneath the chin, and act like a garrote, but thankfully, not usually with the same kinds of pressure on the throat. So, there is generally less pain in that area. However, it also obfuscates your vision, which can make defense hard unless the bag can be removed.

Reach behind to grab a hand holding the bag, and twist your body, pushing your head into the attacker as you strike him/her. Once you have impacted him/her enough for them to release the bag, pull it off, and step back or press forward. Chance are, with a hold being released, and the activity, the bag will already be half off, loose, or starting to come loose.

Once the bag is off, it's on like Donkey Kong.

Edit:
Here is the video I am referencing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yd7npft6xmk

[CJs Dad]

Now I have not gone through any classes yet, but from videos I've seen, I would imagine that you would probably be best to use a defense like the one presented for a garrote. My impressions, however, are theoretical, not practical as yet.

The trouble with a bag is that it often will slide beneath the chin, and act like a garrote, but thankfully, not usually with the same kinds of pressure on the throat. So, there is generally less pain in that area. However, it also obfuscates your vision, which can make defense hard unless the bag can be removed.

Reach behind to grab a hand holding the bag, and twist your body, pushing your head into the attacker as you strike him/her. Once you have impacted him/her enough for them to release the bag, pull it off, and step back or press forward. Chance are, with a hold being released, and the activity, the bag will already be half off, loose, or starting to come loose.

Once the bag is off, it's on like Donkey Kong.

Edit:
Here is the video I am referencing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yd7npft6xmk

hmm I've seen that video someplace before.

[stevetuna]

Wow - I thought at first that this was going to be some sort of joke thread.

The good news is that so far this guy is 0 for 4. The bad news is that he may learn and adjust his tactics. The worse news is that this serial behavior won't stop until it's stopped.

Guerriere - please post any updates that you might find about this case. I'm betting that the attacker will be found to have some sort of physical deformity (not based upon any great insight on my part, but from a case that FBI profiler John Douglas described in one of his books where the attacker used a similar M.O.).

[SkaldGrimnir]

Wow - I thought at first that this was going to be some sort of joke thread.

The good news is that so far this guy is 0 for 4. The bad news is that he may learn and adjust his tactics. The worse news is that this serial behavior won't stop until it's stopped.

Guerriere - please post any updates that you might find about this case. I'm betting that the attacker will be found to have some sort of physical deformity (not based upon any great insight on my part, but from a case that FBI profiler John Douglas described in one of his books where the attacker used a similar M.O.).


From another article:
http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=25&sid=1141685
The suspect is described as a black man with a medium build and light to medium complexion. He is described as 20 to 30 years old and between 5-foot-10 and 6 feet tall.

The article says the man runs as well, so if there is any deformity, it's not been obvious enough for any of the attacked women who have seen him to point out.

But he is a coward, that is obvious. He runs up, attacks from behind, tries to make sure no one sees him, and runs away at slight resistance.

To be honest, these are the attitudes I've seen with people who drug victims more than not.

Also, there may be a copycat:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0607/429719.html

[SkaldGrimnir]

hmm I've seen that video someplace before.

Yeah, it's a good video. Too bad the guy doing the attacking is such a ham of an actor. You can tell he goes way off script with those silly facial expressions.



rofl2

[CJs Dad]

Yeah, it's a good video. Too bad the guy doing the attacking is such a ham of an actor. You can tell he goes way off script with those silly facial expressions.



rofl2

LOL well played sir

[Guerriere]

This serial bad guy is also on the loose:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1207/482183.html

Since he's attacking women at bus stops, my defense is driving to work.

...though since I can't bring coffee on the bus, it's probably better for him than me that our paths won't cross. :abx: I'm not a nice person when I'm not caffeinated. :box:

[blindfold]

The attacker with the trash bag may not have reached the point of killing someone yet. He grabs them and when they struggle he runs away out of fear that he may kill them or be seen. So he hasn't really pushed the limits, yet. If he does he may screw up, because he has lost his fears or concerns. He doesn't want to get caught or he wouldn't run. If they had a description then someone has seen him and he ran. Being seen may also have cooled his jets, until he feels more comfortable or finds somewhere else to go. He has probably been jogging that park for years and lives close by.

Just an opinion.

I also agree with the garrot defense. I think it should work.

[Giant Killer]

I've tried this with plastic bags of varying strengths and found that I was able to rip pretty much all of them off in one quick motion. If it's a type of cloth instead, you may not be able to rip it as easily, but it should be possible to breathe through it, at least as long as you don't panic. Then the garrote defense should work well.

__________________
Giantkiller

[KMCat]

I've tried this with plastic bags of varying strengths and found that I was able to rip pretty much all of them off in one quick motion. If it's a type of cloth instead, you may not be able to rip it as easily, but it should be possible to breathe through it, at least as long as you don't panic. Then the garrote defense should work well.

__________________
Giantkiller

2 days before Christmas you were worrying about this and did experiments to test this
scenario. I am impressed.

[blindfold]

That's called devotion. For Christmas Day GK is planning to do defenses for kids with new bicylces from strangers. For the younger students it's the training wheel defense. thumbsup

Happy Holidays

[Guerriere]

She's also working on a defense against fat men who invade your home through the fireplace.

[Giant Killer]

The fat man got stuck in the chimney, so no worries there. We'll call the fire department to remove him.

Actually, don't mean to disappoint, but I didn't try it out now but a few months ago or so, when the question first came up (yes it came up before!).

For Christmas, I was trying the same defense with wrapping paper in case an insidious attacker decides to wrap you up as a holiday present for his family. Good news, the paper rips everytime! Only problem is the duct tape...

_________________
Giantkiller

[Guerriere]

I searched before I posted! How did I miss it? Well thanks for taking one for the team, and be sure to check the IDs of the fire department guys who show up. They have axes you know. Can never be too sure!

[jjk]

I've done a little training in plastic bag over the head if you are sitting in a car, or in a chair (cause otherwise the best thing to do is turn around). What I was trained in, NOT by a Krav instructor, was:

Step 1 - breathe. Suck the bag in by opening your mouth wide, and then poke a big hole through the bag in your mouth. Otherwise the adrenaline and heavy quick breathing will take you out in seconds. We tried it with the toughest bags we could get, and found it wasn't too hard to poke through once the person was really trying to suffocate you and you breathed in properly.

Step 2 - now that you're no longer in danger of suffocation, and your attackers hands are both busy, you can use that hole to rip a larger one to see, or go at it blind (which isn't a bad idea because he's behind you in the first place and you probably have a good idea of his location), or if you think he didn't hear you pop the hole/ is alone/ might not shoot you afterwards then you can fake dead by controlling your breathing, slumping over, and waiting until he releases his grip before ripping the bag off and going at it.

Just some things to try.

[Giant Killer]

Wouldn't you be able to rip the whole bag off in one big tearing motion from top to bottom? Sort of like a pluck, but ripping down on the bag. I've done this with several plastic bags and it seemed to work well. It ripped the bag, so that my face (eyes/mouth) were all clear and I could see and breathe. The only drawback was that now the bag was still around my neck and the attacker might be able to use it in the same manner as a rope, tightening it around my neck and choking me (cutting the blood to the brain, which could result in loss of consciousness quickly).

If you are standing, this may not be so bad, because you still got counters and can turn into him. Inside a car, it may be harder. Then again, if you are aware of your surroundings, it may be hard for a guy to get into a position from which he would be able to sneak up on you from the back seat of your car and manage to put a bag over your head before you even notice that he's there.

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Giantkiller

[jjk]

Yea, I could see ripping from top to bottom. Is it possible to do though if the bag is being held skin tight against you? You'd probably scratch yourself pretty hard if you could get it off, though if it worked... better than being suffocated to death.

And yea, I always think in horror movies "Seriously, how hard is it to see someone in the back of your car?" But then there's always on the bus, or at a restaurant, where you'd be more vulnerable.

[Giant Killer]

The times I tried it, the bag was pretty tight and I could even rip it with one hand. It didn't really scratch the face, probably because the main force of the rip went against the bag itself, not the skin.

_________________
Giantkiller

[downforlife76]

Think about maybe a large dry-bag (the kind white water rafters use)... You wouldn't be able to rip that and if I was going to attack someone in such a manner, I wouldn't be using my grochery bag from Ralphs. Then again, If I were a criminal, I'd stick to stabbing or shooting.

J-

[Giant Killer]

Is that dry-bag plastic as well? If it's a type of cloth, it would be harder to rip, but you may still be able to breathe through it, as long as you don't panic. Of course, now you're fighting blind, which sucks, but with the attacker holding the bag over your head, you should have at least a general idea as to where he is, so you can send combatives into that direction.

_________________
Giantkiller