View Full Version : Other martial arts that help Krav?
04-01-2005, 05:31 AM
I have been doing Krav now for a while and also Muay Thai. I thinking after a recent Muay Thai class if it was worth carrying on classes. Other than the fitness aspect im just not so sure how or if it would help the Krav. I have been learning things like flying punches which may work in a boxing ring but unlikely on the street.
My question is then, what other martial arts will directly help with Krav if any?
04-01-2005, 09:06 AM
I'm sorta new here myself and for the last few days I've read most of the older posts on this forum. If you look back you'll see that your question has been brought up by others and there have been some helpful replys. Check em out. :D
04-01-2005, 10:09 AM
Great question. Here are some posts to get you started:
Its a good habit to scroll through the archives before posting. Chances are, somebody may have already posted a similiar question/concern/comment.
Rob, in my opinion, Krav helps Krav.Krav is a complete self defense system. So, first figure out, what you want to get better at. If it's self defense, keep with Krav, as long you all have some sort of sparring/fight class at the school.If it's competition, stick with MT,Boxing, BJJ, Judo etc. You can do the MT and grappling for fun and competition and to sharpen up some particular areas of sport figthing. The competetive aspect allows you to practice your fighting skills in a more regular and safer environment than the street,on the other hand with Krav you're training to defend your life-so not something you can \"test out\" in a safe manner.
04-01-2005, 02:03 PM
I agree. Krav is the only thing that will help your Krav. However, training in grappling (Judo, BJJ, Greco-Roman, etc.) will make you a much more rounded fighter who is better able to defend himself. As much as wew would like it to be, Krav is not the \"end all, be all\" of self-defense.
04-01-2005, 10:54 PM
First of all there is no such thing as a ''supieror'' martial arts. No martial arts in the world has everything you need to win a fight. They all have to be combined together at your own discreshen. ? did i spell that right? Anyways, I always suggest Jui-Jitsu to anyone who wants to become an all around figher, Krav Maga is very pratical and that it why I love it so much.
But, I also take taekwondo which on the street is just about as useful as gymnastics is in a fight. You think I am ever going to laid a jump reverse 540 heel kick to someone's head? or to any where on thier body for that manner? Probably not, DEFFENTLY not, Odds are slim.
I suggest krav maga, boxing, karate, ju-jitsu, and any kind if submission fighting if you want to be ''well rounded''. Just watch the UFC or any other Mixed Martial Arts Sport, and they always tell what they train in. And I have never seen a fighter on there yet that hasn't trained in Ju-Jitsu. But its your Training, and your life, and yes your money, so you decide whats best for YOU.
04-02-2005, 11:10 AM
Are you serious. You don't know of any MMA fighters that don't have a background in JJ. If that was the case, it would be a JJ tournament. If most of these guys know JJ, it's enough to fill a thimble.
I also disargre about the \"superior\" martial arts comment. Keep it in context. If your talking Self-defense, yes some are better then others. Krav is among the top of the list. You yourself said TKD does not have SD applicable techniques. I also doubt combining Tai Chi and Krav will make me a better fighter.
04-03-2005, 09:25 PM
Some comments on what people have said.
Real tai chi can help out any martial art. The slow motions of tai chi forms develop the total body alignment when you strike, and develops balance and sensitivity. But these are long term things. I know a guy who does submission grappling tournaments, and he said that his push hands background made the transition to grappling much easier. But most tai chi is not martial in any way, and requires a lot of time.
Tae kwon do has most of the same practical techniques as other martial arts- front kicks, side kicks, straight punches, palm strikes, knee strikes, chops, and elbows. As it gets more advanced, it gets more showy, but it kind of makes sense under the thinking that if you can kick someone in the head, you can kick their groin with ease. Even still, I think tae kwon do can be practical if you really focus on the basics. But training these most basic techniques in a cross-training with krav mindset would just be redundant.
I like karate training because it is rather introspective- you focus on overything it is that you do, and feel how your body moves (as does tai chi)- something which is less evident when doing adrenaline drills, etc. It also has all those generic martial art techniques that you should know.
I like being able to practice martial arts without going full adrenaline all the time. It's necessary to do, but not all the time. I enjoy being able to practice in a solitary, relaxing, enjoyable fashion at the park. In these instances, I do ki chuan do principle of motion drills, aikido sensitivity drills, shaolin kung fu exercises, tai chi exercises, and katas.
But if you really want to train in something in addition to krav for pure self defense and that's it, learn how to shoot a gun.
04-03-2005, 10:53 PM
Yes, I have never i repeat NEVER seen a fighter in a Mixed Martials Fighting Ring that has not touched, or AT LEAST scrapped the top of off Ju-Juitsu. And that is why you ask??? Because I will tell you...
90% of all fights hit the ground.
Are you kidding?
No, 90% of all fights hit the ground, and what is Ju-Juitsu? AAh Ground fighting, NO wonder thats why most of the guys who win the Championship belt are GROUND FIGHTERS!
Vitor Belfort, Royce Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Frank Shamrock, Frank Mir, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, just a hand full.
And I have trained in Ju-Juitsu, and Wrestling. The most pratical martial arts are those two, because they involve the one thing that happens in 9 out of 10 fights. GROUND FIGHTING.
I would not want to be in a fight if all I knew was Taekwondo. Taekwondo is NOT a martial arts. It is a martial sport. The defenition of Martial is Of, relating to, or suggestive of war. And the sport comes in because Taekwondo does not train you to fight, it trains you to spar. The rules of sparing are, no punching to face or to head or to the throat or anywhere below the belt. you make kick only to the head, and to the padded areas, being the front of the shoulders and the stomach.
Now, does that sound like a real fight too you?
Okay, I am about to get into a fight,
uh, we can't punch each other in the face alright?? Sound good?
My opponent is gonna be like, yeah sure you can't punch me but I'll knock your Taekwondo a** down. Riduclous. Taekwondo is not streat wrothy.
Boxing, Submission, Jui-Jitsu, Wrestling or any other time of ground fighting are the core of all of our fighters in the UFC, Prde FC, King of the Cage and any other fighting because, THEY WORK.
NO SUCH THING AS A SUPIERIOR MARTIAL ARTS! AND IF YOU THINK THERE IS. I AM SORRY, BUT YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
90% of all fights go to the ground. What is this, 1991? :roll:
Regarding internal arts, slow motion drills, etc., that's fine if you are doing it for the \"art\", but don't try to pass it off as self protection, or even as a viable complement. If what you are saying is true, then pro athletes would all train to \"align\" their shots, hits, throws, kicks, etc. by doing slow motion drills. They don't, because it doesn't simulate what really happens in the competition, just like these movements don't simulate what really happens in a violent encounter. Dead patterns, katas/forms, etc. look NOTHING like a fight. You want to work tactile sensitivity? Wrestle.
04-04-2005, 06:17 AM
\"90% of all fights go to the ground\"
This simply is not true. Not even close. I will try to find the true stats on street and bar fights that go to the ground. There was an article in a magazine, The researcher had something like 500 to 1,000 street and bar fights to compare.
I believe its closer to 25% go to the ground. JJ people like to say those high numbers. The first time I heard something like that was in a JJ class. I was shocked. If you were talking about in the MMA ring, I would say its true. But not the streets.
04-04-2005, 06:44 AM
katas/forms, etc. look NOTHING like a fight
Couldn't disagree with you more! Now while these forms aren't as intense as actual sparring or real time fighting, they teach you to move in many different directions, while throwing a variety of strikes at multiple opponents. It helps train your body and mind to being consistently accurate. Accuracy is just as important as strength and endurance when fighting. I take both Kenpo and Krav and they provide a nice balance to complement each other. The key to fighting is adding as many dimensions to your game as possible and zoning in on what works best and is the most natural for you to do.
04-04-2005, 06:55 AM
Every sport I have played does slow motion drills ń Basketball, baseball, football, bowling, swimming and even sprinting. You have to learn how to move first.
xbmw200x, if you were training your wife, your sister, or your mom self protection, and they had a limited amount of training time, you'd spend it on kata? :? How does that prepare them for an encounter with an armed and intoxicated rapist?
I'm sorry, but if you believe kata resembles a real fight, you know nothing about violence, which is great for you, but don't disillusion others. Work the door of a rough club, go on a ride-along with LEOs, work at a convenience store on \"the wrong side of town\" at 2:00 AM, then tell me kata looks like a real fight. :wink:
BTW, the topic was, martial arts that help KM. People that train in KM are generally looking for self protection proficiency in a limited amount of time. I hardly think learning katas and internal arts fit that goal.
keeii, I specifically referenced pro athletes for a reason. They generally already \"know how to move\". If you think they spend a lot of time doing slow motion drills, you are strongly mistaken. They work on explosiveness and being able to perform under pressure. Working slow is fine at very early stages, for a very limited amount of time, but not for thousands of repetitions in dead patterns, which is what I addressed.
Bowling's a sport? 8)
04-04-2005, 07:40 AM
Ryan, you missed the point. You stated that it has NOTHING to do with fighting and by saying that you are wrong. I wasn't arguing that katas are the best way to learn self defense. I was saying that they do have their application in combat. You can dislike doing them or think that it is useless, but you fail to understand that everything that is taught in those classes is for a reason. They aid students develop their self control, memory, form and balance. They may not directly aid in succeeding in a fight but they are contributing factors in the development of a well rounded fighter. I get what your saying and we are just talking semantics here as I think they are overrated and too repititous, hence my resoning for putting Krava above Karate. But everything is what you make of it, if you put yourself in a mindset that you are not going to get anything out of something, then you won't. If you go with the mindset that you take everything as a challenge to improve your instincts and ability, then you do your katas like you handle a fight, with precision and accuracy. Training is about getting your body to react to situations naturally and repitious movements and sequences is the best way to do it.
I didn't miss the point. I'm a third degree black belt in kempo. I know all of the lines about the benefits of kata. I just don't buy ANY of them. I maintain they have NOTHING to do with real fighting.
You said, \"Training is about getting your body to react to situations naturally and repitious movements and sequences is the best way to do it.\" Training to react naturally? You can hone natural instincsts. If you do natural moves in repetition, maybe, but if you do unnatural moves in repetition (such as moves in most katas), it kind of defeats the purpose. Also, training in sequences is pretty ridiculous. There are too many variables which make such training and expectations unrealistic. If you always train for \"A-B-C\" type scenarios (for thousands of reps), then your REAL opponent doesn't react the way your IMAGINERY opponent did, your body/mind won't know how to react. You only have one brain. Train as close to reality as possible. Katas are nowhere close.
I mean this with ALL due respect. You talk about kata giving students better memory and form. What does either of those have to do with fighting? Do you think the guy with the most clinical inside-out crescent kick and rising ridgehand wins?
04-04-2005, 09:52 AM
First off, I agree with almost everything you said and I am not trying to step on your toes or argue for the sake or arguing.
I said if before and I'll say it again, I think the forms are overrated myself, but the basic elements from them can be used in other aspects of fighting. When I speak of form I don't mean the best form of single kick or punch will win a fight. For example: if you don't throw kicks with good form and cause inbalance, then the result may leave you open to attack. If you practice good form in kata, then in theory it should carry over to sparring.
Like I had mentioned previously, I agree with almost all you are saying, we just aren't seeing eye to eye for some reason, but hey that's ok.
Hey man, my toes are fine. :wink:
I see what you are saying, I just think there are more efficient, more realistic ways to train. No big deal.
04-04-2005, 10:20 AM
Is this for real. atakrav, you find yourself wrong, and instead of owning up to your mistake, you call me an idiot, I like your maturity.
90% of fights go to the ground, send us the link to the research site that published that info. Because you know what, 100% of fights start standing up. That's fighting, not sport grappling.
Most of those UFC fighters you mentioned are wrestlers, more then JJ or BJJ guys. In addition, once again, UFC fights are not commiserate with street fights. No more explanation needed. It's been talked about ad nausem.
You think wrestling, and JJ are the best MA's, yet you waste your time with TKD, and Krav.
uh, we can't punch each other in the face alright?? Sound good?
My opponent is gonna be like, yeah sure you can't punch me but I'll knock your Taekwondo a** down. Riduclous. Taekwondo is not streat wrothy.
I never said I was a proponent of TKD for SD, so why are you bringing it up to me. If you want, you can go to the ground in a street fight, just be aware of the broken bottle on the floor, or the curb by the street, or the hard asphalt.
Me, I would rather render him unconscious while standing up.
You have no idea what my background is, or how much I work on the ground, yet you try to preach to me. It's all about training in proportion.
No martial arts are superior hey, so that means that even the eightball magician martial artist is as good as any Gracie, or Couture.
Look, you tried to argue semantics, and you failed.
Did I mention that I get to train with Couture this Summer :wink:
04-04-2005, 10:41 AM
It might be true that a high % of fights go to the ground but unless you are dealing with a trained grappler (BJJ, etc) most of these will end up back on the feet...
UFC is a perfect example of this, the last one - UFC 51 - there was one fight that ended in submission, the rest were knockouts but a majority of them did hit the ground only to have 1 fighter get out and back on his feet.
I know UFC is not a \"real\" street fight but it was referenced earlier with regards to ground.
This discussion took place on another recent post and my feeling was that a fight will hit the ground if you are dealing with a grappler or a random untrained \"joe\" who knows nothing better than to tackle. In both cases you have a better chance of surving, running, etc by finding a way to get back up.
That being said, I believe that to compliment krav, you need the basics of what the grapplers/subs are doing in order to get out of that situation and get back up to continue the fight...or run. This is covered as the levels go up.
Just my 2 cents -
04-04-2005, 02:28 PM
Strikers believe that 90% of all fights are finished standing Grapplers believe that 90% of all fights go to the ground. Whichever you believe, are you willing to be unprepared 10% of the time? I believe that most fights are decided in the first exchange of blows, but those that don't will end up on the ground. Therefore, even though I am primarily a striker, I also work hard on my ground game.
And while I will be the first to bash TKD, and tell you how it took me years to \"unlearn\" my BB... I will also tell you that I once broke 3 ribs of an opponent in a bar parking lot fight with a round kick, immediately ending his determination to continue.
04-05-2005, 06:11 AM
Look, you guys can spout all the \"I believe that so and so number of fights end on the ground, or so and so fights end standing up\", all you want. One simple reality, all fights start standing,, and that's the only number that I gave.
Only thing I believe is that I need to defend myself, whether its standing, or on my back.
I don't know if you were talking to me personally Jerry, and excuse the colloquialism, but there ain't no were I ain't ready to defend myself\"
Any one want to prove me wrong. Anyone see a fight were both guys said\" hey lets go to our knees, slap hands and have a got match.\"
04-05-2005, 08:56 AM
Only idiots who have trained ONLY in Krav Maga bieleve that fights always end standing. Someone who has trained in more than one martial arts will know that 90% of fights end up hitting the pavement. And only idiots who have never gotten into a fight think that fights end standing. EVERY fight I have gotten into hit the ground. People who think they know it all because they have been taking 3 months of krav maga, and all they work on is stand-up. Ask any UFC or any ultimate fighting fighter, they will tell you the same.
Idiots...blah, blah, blah. 90%...blah, blah, blah. UFC...blah, blah, blah. Original, enlightening, and articulate--surely a source to be trusted and revered. :roll:
Look, atakrav, you come on to the board, post in 6 or 7 different threads, complaining in most of them, without giving any real background about who you are. Then you start spouting statistics and platitudes, supported by nothing but your own empirical \"research\" (even after being probed for sources.) You call people idiots and question backgrounds, without knowing anything about anybody. This is easy to do from the comfort of your keyboard.
Welcome to the forum. :P :wink:
04-05-2005, 09:23 AM
Well I appriciate your welcome. My name is Austin Smith, I have trained in Ju-Jitsu, Wrestling, Karate, Taekwondo, and Krav Maga. I have been doing Krav Maga and Taekwondo now for about 3 in half years. I am from San Diego, California but due to being in a Military Family I had to move. I grew up in a violent family house hold, where my brother and I fought all the time, as well as my step father. I got into martials arts when i was little, but never took it much further from there, when I become a little more mature I started again and it really took off. I have only one black belt and that is in Taekwondo, but have been doing Krav maga for 2 years. Ju-Jitsu was a summer program that I was in, where i would fly out to San Diego for a summer and train with an extrodinary instructor named Jeff Clark. Thats my background... : )
And again I gave that satistic for YOU people to benefit, Not for a recoil of argumenitive responses towards me and my bielefs. Research it ask your instructors. Instead of automatically resorting towards telling me I am wrong, why don't YOU do some research. I have already done mine, but I made the mistake of trying to share it on a Krav Maga forum, maybe I should try it on a Ju-Jitsu site.
See, you say you've done the research, so what's your source? I'm not going to promote myself here, but let's just say I've done the research--empirical and otherwise. I've trained with and learned from some of the best in the world.
I'm not \"arguing\" just to argue, but you shouldn't assume that you can come on here and start throwing out stats and \"facts\" and not be challenged. I'm sure if you go to a BJJ board, they'll jump right on with you. If that's what you need, great, but that's not how people grow. We grow--in life, in training, in teaching, etc. through adversity.
04-05-2005, 09:41 AM
This is idiotic, I am arguing with someone who may or may not have any martial arts expierence at all. I'm done.
04-05-2005, 09:51 AM
Tell you what big boy. Your in VA, were in NC. Perhaps one day you can grace us with your presense. And we also travel alot. www.rhek.com
Any questions, let us know, we would be glad to set up a training session one day.
04-05-2005, 10:03 AM
You seem very confrontational ''big boy''? HHm, well I will be down in New Bern on the 8th and the 9th near the convention center. But to tell you the truth I probably wouldn't come near you or your school because everyone from your school is way to testosorone driven for me. All you seem to care about is how good look in front of others, how well you can prove me wrong. But hey! tell ya what, My school is Red Mill in Virginia its an ATA school you can look it up online at www.ataonline.com good luck!
04-05-2005, 10:16 AM
As a neutral observer I would have to say atakrav is talking out his bunghole. 90% huh? If you knew how to fight you would do everything in your power to stay on your feet in a hostile situation. Sure if you want or need it to go the ground it can. The fight would have to depend on the experience and style of both fighters and predicting the frequency of that is impossible, anything can happen.
What did you take polls nationwide on the average fight and compile the number 89.99% and just round it to 90 or what? Making bold statements and then insulting others is how you end up getting in all these fights. You aren't going to convince anyone of intelligence to agree with you with an attitude like that. You're wasting your time trying to talk like a keyboard killer, just let it go dude it's not worth it.
04-05-2005, 10:29 AM
Mary Beth? Testosterone-driven?
Hey, ata, I've been teaching Krav now for nearly two years now. Getting my Brown Belt in June. Been wrestling for quite sometime now and have been rolling gi/no-gi BJJ now for over three years.
Are you familiar with Erik Paulson? How about Darren Levine? Bas Rutten? Well all these guys have trained Ryan or his instructors. Lets just say in both MMA and Self Protection circles, he's legit.
And if you have ever attended any of Ryan's seminars (he's all over the east coast), you would see he always brings several female instructors and students, who are probably laughing quite heartily right now regarding your comments.
Take the honorable way out and simply agree to disagree. It'll get worse for you if you keep this up.
BTW, I'm in DC. Ryan is hosting Bas and Randy Couture in July. Maybe you could caravan up with us? You can get my website through my profile.
Okay, I tried to be the nice guy, which we all know is not my forte. :lol:
I'm not going to argue about this. You've had plenty of opportunity to explain your comments, and the best you can do is throw insults and question backgrounds. No problem, life's too short.
I tell you what though, we always have stuff going on at our school. You're welcome to come down and check it out anytime. Our submission fighting instructor and I will be doing two days of workshops in Philly, April 23 and 24. Come and see us there. This is not a challenge. This is an opportunity for learning--for all of us. :wink:
04-05-2005, 12:47 PM
I second that notion. :D
Why do I bother with these things, they always ultimatly have no resolution :x
04-05-2005, 02:19 PM
All that verbiage about Southern Gentlemen.....What a bunch of baloney. :wink: 8)
04-05-2005, 04:53 PM
Insulting others and all of this nonsense. All I've gotten is insults from you people, ever since I said 90% of all fights hit the ground, I have been getting chastized and scrutanized for what I think. Even before I said anything remotly insulting. Sorry for trying to spread some of my knowledge to the world.
04-05-2005, 09:09 PM
Don't misinterpret a jab I make towards my friends as a channel for more toxicity. We have all invited you to train despite our differences.
Unclench and relax, man. It's over...
04-05-2005, 10:47 PM
Alright I just got into a fight with my brother tonight it was awesome, (this was the first fight I had gotten into in a year) So he slapped me in the face and ran away and I ran after him and punched him in the back of the head (by the way he is 6'1 and weighs about 190) and I am 5'3 and weigh 130 and i grabbed him, and applyed a rear-naked choke but i couldn't get my right hand behind his head because he was grabbing me and trying to fling me over and he fell over to the ground and he was trying to jab my eye balls out and tryed to poke them so i punched him in the back of the head again and he was still trying while my left arm was still around his throat but i still couldn't get my right hand around the back of his. My mom came in and started yelling at us and we stopped, by the way I am 18 and still currently living at home and trying to pay for college, anyways, if it was a street fight I would have gotten my eyes poked out, but thats another lesson that I will bring back to the do-jang tommorrow and try to figure out what I did wrong. But yet again it proves that one more fight went to the ground!
Just a quick question.... If I knock my opponent out and he drops to the ground, does that mean that the fight went to the ground? :wink: If so, then all of my fights have gone to the ground and I have to say that 100% of my fights are ground fights. :D
What if we are grappling and one or both of us eventually gets up? Does that mean that 100% of all ground fights go to an upright position? Dear god... I'd better work on my stand-up then, because I wouldn't want to be caught off guard!!
04-05-2005, 11:26 PM
You seem just a little cocky, just in my opinion. Even if all my fights I had knocked everyone out. I would never tell someone that because you sound hot headed and you sound like a prick. Just my anaylisis. And alot a bit sarcastic buts its okay, i know its just your way of responded to someones point of view. And if i said why are you being so sarcastice or rude? you would probably say something like \"if you don't want critisism then you shouldn't have come on the forum\" or something like that. there is a healthy and friendly way to dielever critisism and your example was not it. :)
04-05-2005, 11:50 PM
My guess is most of you guys/gals started training in some other fighting discipline BEFORE learning Krav? Maybe not. If you started with Krav, and are taking other MA's chime in. :)
I started Muay Thai training a year and a half ago. Started Krav training in January (very intermittent). I would say the last year of training in MT, \"helped\" my Krav in that I know the basic strikes, and some defenses to basic strikes before stepping into the classroom. My MT instructors are also KM students and I would say they bring a lot of the SD perspective and aggressive tactics into the MT classes and so when I stepped into my first KM class I didn't feel like a total noob. Also they train in Kenpo. They are very efficient and as far as I can tell devastating fighters. I would not recommend anyone go up against either of them on the street.
As far as I can tell there are aspects of Krav that you have to get from Krav training. As the more experienced posters stated, Krav is so SD oriented, and so distilled that no other MA approaches it in speed of acquisition and focus on disabling your attacker with extreme predjudice.
...and the point of my rambling is this: Any training that increases your speed, concentration, coordination and reflexes will \"help\" your Krav. Go for it. I'm taking everything I can get. ....hmmmm, kenpo... :)
04-06-2005, 06:48 AM
atakrav, your \"fight\" sounds like a scene from Napoleon Dynamite...
04-06-2005, 06:49 AM
and you do like to use the word idiot a lot.... hmmm, what color is your hair?
atakrav, this will be my last post to this thread because it's gotten silly. There is no way to give you friendly or constructive criticism... people have already tried to no avail. Here is the simple solution to all of this.... post any link to any statistic that states that 90% of all fights go to the ground. The only caveat to this being that it can't be a Jiu-Jitsu site (they tend to float this statistic without backing it up as well). The only info I've ever seen similar to this is that 1. The \"90%\" statistic is from POLICE OFFICERS who purposely take their suspects to the ground for cuffing purposes, and 2. The real statistic is closer to 40-50% from crime reports. Take your time, do some research, and back up your claim with something other than a tussle with your brother that your mommy broke up.
04-06-2005, 02:57 PM
You use words that tend to push people in a negative way but aren't strong enough to be dedectied by a nuetral observer. You guys are just way to cocky for me, you can't even try to imagine if my satistic is right or not, all you think about is how to say I am wrong. Ha, you guys are funny...
04-06-2005, 03:39 PM
Its the internet dude, we sound cocky because we don't have time to placate all our posts with, \"I hope this doesn't offend anyone and I am sorry if it does, my opinion of this is_____and if you disagree I am not trying to make you feel bad or hurt your feelings but it is just something I heard...\" bla bla bla. its words on a screen, don't take it so hard.
and your fight went to the ground because you tried a rear naked choke standing up and that is also why you are vulnerable to the eye poke. Why tie yourself up and have your head so close to his weapons? Why did you chase him? Why didn't you kick out his legs from behind if you where close enough to punch him in the back of head?
Maybe 90% of fights go to ground, so what. Maybe 80% of the people who fight are idiots that have no skills. What is the stat. for skilled fighters vs. idiots? I remeber the 40 to 50% stat. from some FBI statistics, maybe someone should google it?
04-06-2005, 03:50 PM
All I'm saying is that sounding cocky and prideful makes you sound arrogent. Why sound dumb? When you could easliy portray the same meanings without affending anyone. It just seems to me that alot of martial arts are hot headed and have alot of pride because they think they can beat everyone which is obvisiouly not the case. Just chill and you don't have to affend everyone because you dont' have time or whatever. Thats ridiculous, the point of this forum is for ideas and terms to converge so people can make thier own assumptions about things. But edifcation is also a big part of it too, you don't have to cut everyone down all the time...
04-06-2005, 04:22 PM
I hear ya...
also remember some of us have had these same discussions over and over, and every few months someone new starts them up again,...so people can come off as cocky, harsh, and as if they know it all, because they do (in terms of where the thread will end up going :D ). You have to bring something new to a forum thread like a reference or hotlink to really prove anything new to old members. Remeber this forum started back in around 2000, so alot has been read and said on here....
Let's all start over.....What do we mean by, \"goes to the ground\"? It surely means a long drawn out ground fight, but does it mean a slip and stand up or a takedown attempt that fails? Does it mean a guy gets knocked down but gets up? When I read, \"a fight goes to the ground\" to me that means it continues on the ground as a ground fight. I have really ever seen this in real life, only friends slap boxing and UFC/Pride stuff.
So maybe we should say 90% of real fights involve trying to not go to the ground fight?
04-06-2005, 06:10 PM
When i say 90% of fights, its like street brawls, you know people who fight who tend to not have any martial arts expierence. Someone who all they do is fight on the street is going to tend to want to sieze and grab and take you down. Becauses its the simpliest instict to just grap a hold of somsone and throw them on the ground, When i said 90% its because all of my instructors had told me this, so deffently I thought it was accurate. Ground fighting is when both parties inganged in the fight are still councious and fighting one another. Not a knock out, because obviously when you get knocked out your lights go out so you can't stand. But obviously I am going to say 90% of all fights end up on the ground because well, I take them there because I am more comfortable siezing and grappling. And i thought that this satistic was accurate because almost every fight i had gotten into it had ended or during the fight we had rolled around on the ground a little bit. Just like the fight I had gotten into a few days again, but it was because I took it there. Ground fighting the dynamics of it is fasinating to me, all the counters and locks and reversals its just an endless mind game of control. I love it, I really need to get out of Taekwondo...
04-07-2005, 07:13 AM
So, 90% of fights YOU'RE involved in go to the ground. That doesn't necessarily mean that translates to the rest of the world...
04-07-2005, 07:24 AM
04-07-2005, 09:00 AM
you previous post is my point exactly...it may not be 90% but I believe that if a fight goes to the ground it is most likely due to the fact that one of the opponents is trained in ground, or one of them is a punk that knows nothing better than to tackle.
Where you and I differ is that I believe that if someone wants you on the ground, then you want to be standing up as that is their weakness. It looks to me like you would like to stay down... Niether of these approaches is wrong as it all depends on your background and more importantly knowing your own personal limits. I ffor instance could not hand with a BJJ in sparring but I feel comfortable that if attacked, I could (in most cases) find a way back up with minimal damge. Very confident if it is a drunk with no skills...
Therefore, my ideal balance of tools would include intense standup training with solid ground training that focuses on getting out and up.
Keep in mind that I do not have time to devote to multiple styles, etc..If I did it would probably be 50-50 or so...
You can not run or back away from someone when you are tangled up with them where as standing you have more control of your destiny to engage or retreat...People who have solid training in ground may disagree with this and rightfully so as they have way more experience than I might ever have rolling around with someone.
Excuse the spelling..on laptop and too lazy to check.
04-07-2005, 05:21 PM
OK, now that everyone has argued this to death... The 90% of all fights end up on the ground is actually based on data from a Los Angeles County Sheriff Dept study from the 1980's which stated \"90% of all incidents end up on the ground\"... meaning that 90% of all Police incidents end up with the suspect on the ground. It actually called for Police training on restraining, manipulating, and cuffing suspects that were taken down... It had nothing to do with fights, but has been perverted as \"proof\"...
04-10-2005, 03:11 PM
What was the topic of this forum again? Oh yeah... uh, I think grappling will help your Krav Maga, and i still think it will.
04-14-2005, 03:23 PM
Hey all, new to the forum.
Alot of the stuff I've seen is people saying that they hear that %95-80 of fights go to the ground.
I've read actual police studies that say street fights (not involving police) %60 end up on the ground.(don't have any links on me, not trying to prove anything, just sharing what ive heard)
I think atakrav had a good point that your averaege high school jock/muscle head with no fight training is gonna throw a few punches and if your qquick enough to block try to pull a \"Goldberg\" spear. (i think that what he called his move when he tackled people)
I also agree with the comment, I belive by Ryan, about watching for that curb/broken bottle.
Also, god forbid you end up on the ground and your attacker has a friend or more. Then it's soccer time with your face.
I think knowing how to handle yourself on the ground is very important because alot of fights do wind up there at one point or another. I would prefer to be able to stay on my feet or be able to get up quickly. Being on the ground hinders escape if things go very bad, they also put you in extreme danger should someone else jump in.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts and get involved on these forums. I love martial arts and I'm planning on enrolling in Krav by the end of the month thanks to some helpful info on this site.
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