The point at which you'd react to a gun threat...

[kravbro]

Hey Guys and Gals:

I've been taking Krav on and off for about a year, and this question always pops into my mind when we're doing gun defense scenarios. Usually, we start the drill off where the attacker would begin by saying, "Give me your money, punk!" or something related and position him/herself with the gun. We would then perform the defense, follow up with counter attacks and that would be that.

My question is this: If this actually happened to you on the street, would you instantly react because of the training or would you take a moment to rationalize the situation and just give the guy your money/wallet/whatever? A lot of people out there say to give them what they want, etc., but what is that breaking point at which you'd decide to act?

Looking forward to your responses. Be safe out there.

[TigerUpperCut]

I'd base my response on where I was, who was around me, and what the person looked like. If you've ever seen a crazy crackhead you know how unstable they are. Anybody who looks as if a car horn might make them shot is going to trigger an instant response. However I have seen robbery tapes where you could tell by the body language and way the person was speaking or acting that they didn't want to shoot anybody, they really did just want the money. Keep in mind you have about 2 to 5 seconds to figure this (if it's crazy crackhead guy) out so I guess you just have to use your best judgement.

[CarpeCanis]

If they try to make you go somewhere with them than it is definitely time to react. If they want to take you somewhere there's like a 90-some percent chance that they're going to kill you.

[MagaMike]

I doubt I'd try a gun disarm in a robbery or intimidation situation, i.e. road rage, bar thing, etc. But if the intent was to force me into a vehicle or to hold me at bay while something violent was perpetrated on another, then I think the chances of me wanting to take the risk and try would increase a lot.

But no matter what, I think it's better to have trained to do it than not. At least you have the luxury of considering action. The untrained really have capitulation as their only option, unless they just want to improvise something (scare-EE).

[MariusNC]

My instinct is to go for it immediately, but it is important to be aware of your surroundings, which you should always be and not just when something happens so you don't waste precious time.
Here is my mindset: I won't be a victim and I won't let anyone bully me. It is my property/money/possession and why should I give it to some punk? I will stand up for myself. Now, having said that, if the situation is such that making a move is unlikely to succeed I will give in, but it is not my preferred choice.

[co611]

Ultimately each individual will have a different set of "standards" that need to be met before they try to disarm an attacker. I have never had a gun pointed at me (in a threatening way) but if I thought he only wanted my $10, then he can have it. But if he is trying to force me and my wife into an alley then ALL bets are OFF....Gun takeaways are such high risk techniques that if it ever happens go and don't ever stop until you WIN...

[Kirsten]

I make the defense as soon as I feel I can and I need to, either in defense of myself or another. Remember, you may comply and give them what they want but you are still the witness and you may be better off dead to them. So you may give them what you want and still find that you need to do something.

I think you are looking for a black and white answer and there just isn't one. The situation in which you will use a weapons defense is going to be a dynamic and rapidly evolving one. There are so many variables that you just can't say you will or won't defend in "this" situation over "that" situation.

[mara_jade]

Kirsten got that right. You can play scenarios in your head all day long. Until it REALLY happens to you, THE answer that works in your casse you just won't know.thumbsup

Anyone thinking there is only 1 answer is kidding themselves.

[kravbro]

Hey, great replies guys; thanks. I agree--you can visualize scenarios until you go nuts, but when all is said and done, different people will have different standards and/or be confronted with different situations. The one constant, however, is our training. At least we will have the tools should something transpire which necessitates action. thumbsup

[phlegmon27]

You hit the nail on the head, Kristen. It's going to be a tactical decision in the heat of the moment.

Don't forget that if/when you do go for it, go 100% and don't stop!

[MagaMike]

Does it matter to anyone whether the gunman is holding the weapon "gangsta style?" (sideways). rofl2

[dckm]

You hit the nail on the head, Kristen. It's going to be a tactical decision in the heat of the moment.

Don't forget that if/when you do go for it, go 100% and don't stop!

EXACTLY. my theory is this - if he's in my reach, i'm goin for that gun. i'm not a mind reader so i dont know if he only wants money or he wants more. i take no chances, u pull a gun on me i assume you're gonna shoot me. a friend of mine still got shot after he gave up his money. he cooperated with the robbers and they still killed him. another associate of mine was forced into his trunk at gunpoint. he was in there for close to 6 hrs. fortunately he survived, but stories like that are rare.

[Kirsten]

No it doesn't matter how they hold the gun.

[brinsonm]

No it doesn't matter how they hold the gun.

while I don't think you should be looking for someone holding the gun sideways as a variable, the way the attacker is holding the gun CAN have an influence and is something to note.

the primary consideration should be how far away the attacker is standing, but if they are using a modified weaver stance, or something comparably professional, chances are good that they have some training in firearms use, most of which includes weapon retention training. if you decide to go for a weapon grab from somoene using these stances, your chances of success are low, and the chances of getting shot are incredibly high. I would say yes, pay attention to how they are holding the weapon, but don't consider it the end all be all of the decision.

most importantly, like kirsten said, EVERY situation will be different, but I would add that EVERY variable is important, and you should consider as many as you can before making a decision.

[MagaMike]

while I don't think you should be looking for someone holding the gun sideways as a variable, the way the attacker is holding the gun CAN have an influence and is something to note.

the primary consideration should be how far away the attacker is standing, but if they are using a modified weaver stance, or something comparably professional, chances are good that they have some training in firearms use, most of which includes weapon retention training. if you decide to go for a weapon grab from somoene using these stances, your chances of success are low, and the chances of getting shot are incredibly high. I would say yes, pay attention to how they are holding the weapon, but don't consider it the end all be all of the decision.

most importantly, like kirsten said, EVERY situation will be different, but I would add that EVERY variable is important, and you should consider as many as you can before making a decision.

This is what I was getting at with my question. (I probably should have just said that instead of being a smart aleck) Does the way a person is holding a weapon tell you anything useful?

[brinsonm]

there is no doubt that the way they are holding the weapon should factor in, just don't count it for more than it means. as I said earlier, you may do better to assess their body stance rather than handhold, but on the other hand, the two-handed grip used in a weaver or modified weaver is going to be difficult to overcome.

a side note, in many of my firearms training courses we have been told repeatedly by instructors, "if you see a gun, expect to get shot, if you see a knife, expect to get cut." if you have never been shot or cut, keep in mind that it WILL hurt, badly. if you are expecting the pain, you can effectively move past it. otherwise, it can really throw your concentration.

back to your point, YES, pay attention to the stance of your potential assailant.

[Ryan]

The odds of someone well-trained in firearms standing close enough to you to allow a takeaway attempt would be a bit ironic, don't you think?

Regarding the KM takeaway, two hands on the gun has little effect on it's efficacy, and the idea that you will ALWAYS get cut or shot is not only untrue, but I believe can be counterproductive to training (a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.) One should certainly understand that it is highly possible/probably, but it is not inevitable.

Regarding the pain, MANY knife stabbing victims do not realize a knife is involved until after the fact, merely thinking they are being punched.

All of these things are good for consideration, but they are not, by any means, absolutes.

[brinsonm]

true, and point well made, but as we are discussing theoretical encounters whose variables number in the hundreds if not thousands, I imagine that the lack of absolutes is something we can take for granted in any of these discussions.

[Ryan]

Perhaps, but your posts read very matter of fact, though that may just be my interpretation of this imperfect medium.