Military based training, LET'S MAKE A LIST!

[TOPitBull]

I would like to know the various types of military combat training that are around and which country they originated in.

I can't seem to find a comprehensive list anywhere so I thought My fellow KM people would be able to help compile such a list.

I will start it off,

please post and I will add to list.

Krav Maga, Haganah - Israel
Hapkido, TKD - Korea
Sambo, -Russia
MCMAP,LINE, KRAV - USA
Pekiti Tirsia Kali - Phillipines
Ancient Muay Thai - Thailand
Shan Shou - China
Pankration - Ancient Rome
Bando, Karate - Japan

[CLFMak]

In America and other western countries, there's a long list of skills that have fallen into disuse from the military, like saber and bayonet fencing. There's a wealth of information available online, especially at the American Heritage Martial Arts site.
In WW2, Fairbairn's system (combato, the lethal version of defendo) was taught to American and British troops and called \"silent killing\". This was based mostly on lethal stand up open hand striking and low kicking, as well as weapons like knives, shovels, and helmets. Then, the US had a new combatives program for various reasons unknown to me, and now we have the Army combatives based on BJJ, and there's the MCMAP, which is highly criticized, but I don't know a whole lot about it. There was the LINE program, which is no longer in use (and was also criticized a lot). There's also SCARS, but I don't want to get into that because I'm not sure how that fits in. So, there's America.
A lot of countries had hand to hand fighting curriculums, but usually they don't have names.
Tae kwon do was practiced by the Tiger Division of the Korean Army, but I'm sure it was different than American Tae kwon do (it may not have even been tae kwon do, but all Korean martial arts kind of go under that name). I've also heard of Red Cell, but I don't know what it is.
Patayin estillo is a fighting system of the filipino army, and emphasizes essentials of fighting with the bolo, from WW2.
Russia has used systema for a long time, and trains in sambo, but it is viewed as a sport, especially in Russia.
I've heard China teaches san shou, which is a really cool sport but seems a bit odd for a military situation. I've also heard they do jing quan do, Alex Tao's system of kickboxing and power breaking.
Israel does haganah, I believe?

[combat10]

HAGANA-at: http://fight2survive.com/default.aspx
COMBAT-SURVIVAL at: www.edgecombatfitness.com

[dugfoot]

The ancient romans trained in pankration, brought to the US by Jim Arvantis. The Gurkhas, who were the only allied soldiers the Japanese ran from in WWII, trained in Bando which was brought to the US by Dr. Muang Gyi. The Thai army uses ancient thai boxing, the art prior to the sport that included stick, knife and spear. Several indiginous tribes in the Phillipines used various forms of Kali/Escrima to deliver mass casualties to US forces using only a few warriors during the Spanish-American war. Then the art that is pretty much 100% American, the lone individual with a firearm. Americans were the first to deploy rifled barrels among the common people and let the individual gain prowess with the firearm rather than deploy at squad levels or higher. The first Americans to use this principal was during the French-Indian war. The settlers would be able to fight the French regulars, who had smooth-bore barrels, from places of concealment and not standing in formation directly across from the enemy. We learned this from the Native Indians. Too bad we had to relearn this lesson during the first 2 years of the American Revolution. There are several good books out there which will help you with your history research.

[wiccaman]

Hiya,

For some very good background on \"WWII Combatives\" (e.g. Fairbairn-Sykes & derivatives) check out:

www.get-tough.net

They've got a lot of the original manuals etc. as .pdf files. Fascinating historically and very useful today (IMHO) although I'd steer clear of the Abhwer stuff :-)

Stay safe,

Al

[TOPitBull]

I am not only doing this for historic reasons.

I would just like to know what system each countries army uses today

Lets get as many countries as we can!

there are lots of them!

[Walker]

I don't really think that countries now, use just one system. I think they just learn tequniques that work from alot of systems.
I also believe it depends on the unit there in. Actually if you talk to anyone in the military, even special forces units, they don't get alot of H2H combat training, they get some, but really thats not how wars are fought today, so why train to.

[Heath]

http://globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html


Free online US Army Manual on Hand to hand combatives :D Enjoy!!!!

[wiccaman]

Hiya,

From the current Army Manual:

\"You are essentially stalling until someone can come to your aid.\"

Well maybe it's time to reconsider whether BJJ is an appropriate system for military use.

Just my $0.02

Stay safe (and off the ground!)

Al

[TOPitBull]

\"but really thats not how wars are fought today, so why train to.\"

one word for you,

FALLUJAH!

are you kidding me?

[Heath]

Hiya,

From the current Army Manual:

\"You are essentially stalling until someone can come to your aid.\"

Well maybe it's time to reconsider whether BJJ is an appropriate system for military use.

Just my $0.02

Stay safe (and off the ground!)

Al Hi Wiccaman I did not notice that. Which section of the Army manual did you find it at because I can not find it? While I am sure there are some tactics still good for use in military use but we really need to get back to what actually works and keep it in the manuals especially with Homeland Security and every American and British citizen to defend ourselves from terrorists as well as prevent the regular crime that is going on. Since you live in England can you comment on the SAS hand to hand combat system? I have seen the book of the SAS and would like to know what the pro's and con's of the SAS system are ? Thank You Heath

[wim]

I'd have to say that I would believe that all modern militaries are mostly just giving soldiers a ray of hope when they teach any amount of h2h combat. I definitely don't believe that it's anything that the military spends any serious amount of time or money on. From my experience in the military, the h2h instruction is so minimal as to really be worthless. Personally, I don't put much stock in any statements that the military uses some particular martial art.

[Walker]

Toppitbull, You said \"look at Fallujah\". Ok, are there many h2h situations there? Just because it is close quarter, doesnt mean h2h. Like I said, and like what WIM said. The military gets basic h2h training, but it is rarely used.

[TOPitBull]

In Mcleans magazine (Canada's \"TIME\" Mag).

They followed a platoon into fallujah.

Believe me there was alot of of H2H.

Insurgents jumping out of cabinets, ceilings and so on.

But I do understand what you guys are saying.

[CLFMak]

Topitbull- interseting that you would note that China trains san soo, because from what I understand, even though san soo came from China, there are no san soo schools in China.

[TOPitBull]

CLFMak

I thought that was what you were saying in the previous post, I'm guessing Shan Sou
is something different?

[CLFMak]

San shou is a kickboxing style. Its actually derived from kung fu, but resembles something between muay thai and American kickboxing. Takedowns are legal, and there are a large number of them, especially from kicks. Kung Lee is probably the best known san shou fighter, you may have seen his signature scissor takedown at some point- really cool move.

San soo is something different. It forms the bulk of the SCARS system, minus the compression groundfighting. San Soo focuses on agression and autokinetics (the concept that people will react in certain ways to strikes, like covering the face when poked in the eye or arching back when struck in the kidney). The agression is trained by an absence of defensive moves- blocking moves are called strikes to the arms and legs. From what I understand, there are forms, and two man techniques where there are specific follow ups trained based on the autonomic responses (ie strike an incoming arm on the forearm, follow with strike to eyes, then strike exposed midsection). They are one of those \"too deadly for the ring\" traditional styles, with lots of strikes like spearhands and chops.

[pikemarsh]

Just a comment on the MCMAP

It has met a lot criticism because the marines that are taught it are not necessarily good h2h fighters. This is mainly due to the fact that they learn on ly the bare necessities of the system. However, an man that attends my church is an instructor trainer for MCMAP, and I assure you he can hold his own with any other fighting style. I guess it all goes back to how much training and instruction you are given, no matter what style.

[Anonymous]

HI,

What do you mean when you seen military systems?

A system made by military or ex military people? I dont thing so. A system still tested by the military, made for and by the military experts.

Krav Maga is truly like that. Sambo - made by the russians - is like that. Sorry, but systema is a joke...ask any russian about it, it is a marketing stuff. The very secret style of the comminust Russia...hehe...

Vietnam has another style, TKD, hapkido is again not combat proven, although TKD made by General Choi, but try those spinning kicks in full armor...

Haganah is made by an ex military. Is it tested, used by many people in true danger or combat?

[Incognito]

The Russian Millitary has nothing whatsoever to do with Systema much like the US millitary has nothing to do with SCARS. You can say that Systema is the Russian SCARS - over the top advertizing, exaggerated claims, and no real link to the millitary.

The Russian soldiers get a very basic course in hand to hand combat on the base of combat sambo. Those that chose to train further and compete have the option to do so. The hand to hand program in the Russian millitary is actually pretty damn good, it's just not mandatory for all soldiers.

[The Kravist]

This might be a question for Mr. Whitman, or someone else with the experience or knowledge. But, why is it that the Krav Maga that is for public consumption -- what Krav HQ in the USA teaches, is different than what the IDF is trained in, or, I should ask, is it different?

I base this on having trained with a former IDF member for several months in 1990. He didn't call it Krav Maga either. We just called it close combat. But, based on the history of Krav Maga, I have to assume that he was trained in Krav Maga.

[KMSF]

Kravist, it was more than likely Krav or his version of what he learned. (But) Changes have been made to the system - it can't always stay the same. Krav is taught to the IDF in a simple 3 week training session usually - It's the basics so it's taught, then if you are in a special forces branch or anti-terrorism squad there are other things taught. Some are obviously secret and not going to be taught to just anyone. And so what? Military is based around guns and bombs. Our own military is constantly changing what they teach the troops it is just common sense.

[Anonymous]

There is an article about military training in February's Black Belt magazine. I didn't get to read it though, because I was in the store and my meter was running... :cry:
Oh, well, maybe next time.

Just thought I'd pass this on....

[dallasvideo]

Hand to hand is the absolute last ditch, worst case scenario.. Lots of weapons to go thru before you arrive at that desperate situation.

For the Phillipines it is only Pekiti Tirsia Kali which covers armed and hand to hand.

From http://www.pt-go.com

Today in the Philippines, Grand Tuhon Gajeís system of Pekiti-Tirsia is the ONLY Filipino Martial Art system recognized as official warfighting doctrine by the Armed Forces of the Philippines. The Military Edged-Impact Weapon System of Pekiti-Tirsia is the official close-quarters combat system of the Force Reconnaissance Battalion, Philippine Marine Corps (PMC) and is part of the official PMC Schools command being taught at Enlisted Basic Training and the Officerís Basic Course. The success of this program has spurned training requests from all other branch services of the AFP and the Philippine National Police (PNP).

[TOPitBull]

Hand to hand is the absolute last ditch, worst case scenario.. Lots of weapons to go thru before you arrive at that desperate situation.

For the Phillipines it is only Pekiti Tirsia Kali which covers armed and hand to hand.

From http://www.pt-go.com

Today in the Philippines, Grand Tuhon Gajeís system of Pekiti-Tirsia is the ONLY Filipino Martial Art system recognized as official warfighting doctrine by the Armed Forces of the Philippines. The Military Edged-Impact Weapon System of Pekiti-Tirsia is the official close-quarters combat system of the Force Reconnaissance Battalion, Philippine Marine Corps (PMC) and is part of the official PMC Schools command being taught at Enlisted Basic Training and the Officerís Basic Course. The success of this program has spurned training requests from all other branch services of the AFP and the Philippine National Police (PNP).

Thanks, I made the adjustment.

Very informative!

[ppct_dti]

Questions for CLFMak

Have you ever served in the US Armed Forces?

Where did you get the information about MCMAP and LINE, about them being highly criticized?



Thanks,

0369

[jumpinjarhead]

If you want the FACTS about MCMAP instead of all the opinions (many of which are wrong) here is the USMC order on the program-note the program is much broader than just H2H techniques. http://www.usmc.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%201500.54A.pdf

[CLFMak]

Questions for CLFMak

Have you ever served in the US Armed Forces?

Where did you get the information about MCMAP and LINE, about them being highly criticized?



Thanks,

0369
I don't remember; this is a four year old thread. I'm kind of surprised I still post here.

[Munster]

It's not hollywood like everyone thinks it is the H2H stuff your talking about for most this stuff is very basic i had better combatives training back at chatsworth. Theyre isnt really a huge emphasis on it since its isnt used all that often I have a better chance of getting hit by lighting or winnning the lottery. Im not saying it doesnt happen cause it does. Mainly during CQB which is why your unit trains (or should) have you train in CQD which has techniques tailored to meet the needs of unit like most special operations units do nowadays ex weapons retentions, knife defensives with or without weapons, taking down combative HVT etc. The LINE system was pretty good got to see some of it before they stopped teaching it however it was deamed by the military as too violent (cause dropping bombs isnt) and alternative means were introduced making a new system one that didnt just finish with killing. Theyre both not bad, but I wouldnt put my life in its hands. lol

[Gabriel Rizk]

As I understand it, the relative lack of hand-to-hand combat training we now see in the United States military is mostly the result of a revolution in American battle tactics.

Originally, US training focused on the development of each soldier - development of personal fortitude, accuracy with a rifle, close combat, etc. However, as the face of modern combat began to emerge around the Vietnam conflict, a change occurred.

With the advent and increasing advancement of firearms, it simply became an inefficient use of time and funds to train an individual infantryman to a high level of hand-to-hand proficiency. The focus was no longer on the accuracy of a soldiers aim, but on raw firepower. So then, the average infantryman simply needs to be physically conditioned, taught the basics of a standardized weapon, and - most importantly - taught how to fit in to a unit. There's just no more sense in training every basic soldier to fight in an unarmed situation.

On the other hand, special forces units are highly individualized and incisive. Given their often close-quarters situation and high mobility, hand-to-hand is altogether necessary.

Well, that was long-winded. . . Why do I feel like I'm in school all over again?

[OldKravDude]

Topitbull, your original question has some errors. Haganah is not from Israel, trust me.

[Vinman]

Topitbull, your original question has some errors. Haganah is not from Israel, trust me.

then where is it from ??