Home Forums Krav Maga Worldwide Forums General KM Related Topics Low round kick defenses in streetfight. Shin or no shin?

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  • #28422
    anonymous
    Member

    Usually, when we practice low round kick defenses we put on shin guards and do the defense where you lift your leg and defend with your shin (like in Muay Thai).

    More rarely we practice just absorbing the kick with your leg and even more rarely do we talk about just jumping back and avoiding the kick.

    Which one of these defenses would you do in a street fight? Seems that lifting your leg and defending with your shin would be risky unless you have very well-conditioned shins, because you wouldn’t have shin guards on. We never practice this defense without shin guards, so you wouldn’t be used to defending this way and might end up getting really hurt, especially if you do it against a heavier opponent. I know you could try to condition your shin, but many people warn against it, because it could really mess up your legs later on.

    Absorbing might work better, you might even be able to counter punch while absorbing the kick.

    Jumping back may be the safest thing to do, since no matter how hard he can kick or what he weighs, if he misses you, you won’t be hurt. On the other hand you will be out of range and it will be harder to counter attack but maybe you could just run away, or if neccessary move back in and punch.

    So, which one would you do? I think I would want to do either absorbing or jumping back, depending on the guy’s size, but instinctively I might lift my leg, because that’s what we practice most often

    #36006
    rosie
    Member

    I’ve never heard of anyone doing a low round kick in a street fight, but anyway I wouldn’t want to get in the habit of jumping back as a defense. You never know, in a street fight, there could be something behind you, and besides, do you really think the attacker is going to stop with just one kick?

    #36007
    anonymous
    Member

    Even if he kicked higher and I’m in the habit of lifting my leg to defend I might still end up defending with my shin. If he kicks hard and I’m not conditioned for it, it might hurt me too much to continue fighting. I was kicked in the shin full force in class once, by a guy who was supposed to do another hand defense, but instead he kicked me. He was a lot heavier than me and was wearing sneakers and the kick was so strong I just hit the floor instantly. It took me several seconds to get back up, during which, in a real fight, he could have convieniently stomped my head in. That’s why I’m a bit nervous about the shin against shin defense in a street fight. I’d condition my shin more, but as I mentioned, they all warn against doing that and I want to be able to walk when I hit fifty! 🙄

    Of course I don’t believe he will stop with one kick, but if I move back and he misses me, he might be off balance, at least for a moment, giving me time to either move right back in and counter or, if possible, move back further, create some distance, maybe even pick up some kind of improvised weapon (if there is one close by) and use it against him. Or maybe I could even run away (if he is really off balance, or maybe he slips or something). The latter ones are less likely, but still, at least I avoided the initial kick.

    I think I would prefer absorbing, because it would keep me closer to the person to counter, but if the attacker were much bigger and stronger (imagine someone Amir’s size kicking your leg for example) and I know he would hurt me pretty badly, even if I try to absorb (or do the shin defense) then jumping back may be safer.

    #36009
    caliwt
    Member

    What do you mean by Absorb the kick? We do this in WT, but I was just wondering what KM does.

    Since KM goes forward and jams the badguy with attacks, they should only get one kick off ideally. If on the edge of range you can get back and then press in, but if so you could also run away too….

    So really you should be in close enough to jam them. I know that shin contact can hurt, but for beginners in WT we say you may have one as you go in but after that you should jam their stance and prevent more. We also attack with a kick and punch so the kick is allready acting as a wedge.

    I like to try to counter with the back of my leg, not the shine side, if I can recognize their kick coming. or do a stop kick with the bottom of my foot.

    Try having only one partner wear shin pads in training. Then the other guy gets sensitivity for absorbing and the shin getts a little tuffer. 😕

    Absorbing (deformation in WT) is the key!! It takes practice but it really can work well. But you need the correct stance to do it, and the correct leg shape on contact, springy energy…**edited for spelling**
    8)

    #36010
    guerriere
    Member

    OUCH!

    Having been kicked in the shin in class, I can tell you that it’s possible to absorb the kick and keep moving, but I had trouble walking for the next two days and it still hurts months later, so I don’t think practicing absorbing a kick in the shin is a good idea.

    #36011
    markx3
    Member

    My understanding is that you donít block with your shin when defending a low round house kick, you absorb and push the kick away with the ankle area between the shin and the instep of the foot. This way you donít make shin to shin contact.

    #36012
    caliwt
    Member

    Absorb with the bone! Ouch!!! When I said deformation I didn’t mean the bone!!! 😳 😀 WT absorbs by changing the shape of the leg, using the joints and flexibility to redirect the force of their attack.

    But my point was that the pain can be tolerated untell after the fight, so it does work. I had one of those shin dents once that hurt for a year!!

    #36015
    ryan
    Member

    Burst in and counter if possible. The problem with a round kick is it is difficult to tell if it is coming low, high, or in between.

    If I have to defend, I prefer absorbing to the thigh and countering. \”Checking\” the kick disrupts your base and doesn’t allow for good, strong, early counters. The reason I teach checking (shin defense) is because it adheres to Hick’s Law, since the front kick to the groin defense is essentially the same. Now you only learn one defense. That said, round kicks are typically telegraphed, and even if you don’t know where it is going, you know it is coming, so get inside of it and counter.

    #36016
    wulfsun
    Member

    Since you’ll be in a situatuion that leaves you with your shoes on, maybe you should jam the kick with your shoe(like in savate) ❓

    #36020
    clfmak
    Member

    I don’t think its so unlikely that a person would throw a roundhouse kick in a streetfight. Most people have two instinctive kicks- the roundhouse with the top of the foot, and the upward kick with the instep. But someone would probably be kicking and then going in with high punches in a frenzied rage, unlike most kickboxers. Low leg kicks can be seen with windmill fighters. This is where that stop kick to the groin shines, because it disrupts the momentum and balance. There’s also that option of the shovel kick to the support leg if you see it coming (a common counter kick in wing chun and savate, but with different dynamice). As for stepping back, you can use triangular footwork to good effect. This is a beautiful move in sparring, because most people expect to land the kick or to have it blocked by the leg, so they overcommit and end up turning further away as you move to the outside (unless they spin through).

    #36023
    anonymous
    Member

    Punch

    #36024
    caliwt
    Member

    Punch, now thats funny 😆

    I think the origional question was more about limiting the pain of shin on shin contact if it has to be that particular defense, i.e. blocking a kick with the leg, and not so much alternative ways to deal with a round kick…

    I always have said punch beats Kick, I like that alot…

    In WT we \”kick away a kick\”, which is the same as Hicks law, i.e. one answer for everything. And if they are not kicking then we get to kick them! So we are concerned with what happens when our kick meets theirs. The WT kick involves a circling step motion to start. This imparts a curved arcingmotion to the kick which limits the direct damage from the shin on shin collsion. It also insures that only 1 of 6 possible kick angle from the attacker will have this shin on shin contact.

    For the low round kick there are also several other vectors. If the force is to much more the side, into only the leg, the leg can pivot and let the force pass. If the force is direct shin to shin, i.e. the right leg kicking into the right leg, we have the arc of our kick which allows us to slide on to kick their standing leg. This both spreads the force across shin and also defeats their power by destroying their stance.

    If the shin to shin contact is enough to prevent this sliding, then the deformation concept turns on and our leg moves out and back to absorb the force, then snaps back as a side kick to standing leg.

    If their kick is left leg into our right leg then the contact is on the outside or calf muscle area. This hurts far less!! All of the above mentioned applys, except in the deformation, we would roll the leg out AFTER contactto absorb the force. This results in the shin being out in the end. Alot of people see this position in photos and put the shin out to bein with but this is wrong as shin to shin should be avoided if you can.

    I hope that helps.
    8)

    #36028
    anonymous
    Member

    Hey all!!

    Thanks for the many answers!! 🙂

    Cali,

    The absorbing defense I was mentioning means you just leave your leg on the ground instead of lifting it up, tighten your muscle and let the kick hit you on the thigh. As long as you tighten your muscles, you should be able to take the kick. In doing so, you are still close enough to your opponent and you might be able to give a strong right punch as a counter attack while he is still standing on one leg.

    I think, in a street fight, I would prefer this defense. It would still keep you close, you are more stable (with both feet on the ground) and it may be less painful (enabling you to continue the fight).

    I’m just not so sure about the checking defense in a street fight – this could of course be caused by the fact that we never practice it without shin guards and so you naturally wonder how well it would work without that kind of protection.

    Even with shin guards you can feel the impact when you spar or practice in class, so without them, who knows? Of course you have to fight through pain, but what if it’s so bad that you simply drop to the floor and can’t get up? I just remember this one time when that happened to me. I wasn’t defending though, I had all my weight on my front leg, so the guy I was working with could do a specific hand defense, but instead he kicked me with his hard sneaker right into the shin. He outweighed me by a few dozen pounds, which of course made matters worse, but it almost reminded my of a liver kick in the way I went down to the ground.

    Might be that we are not practicing how to do the checking defense correctly in a street fight. It looks like in Muay Thai, when they do this technique, they lift up the leg at a 90 degree angle and \”check\” the lower part of the leg (bend it back) so that their heel almost hits their butt, which I think causes the kick to kind of slide along the shin, not hit it head on. When we do it in class it looks like we don’t \”check\” it quite as much ( so there is more impact on the shin).

    Once or twice, a long time ago in a special class, we defended without shin guards. Very, very carefully, though, slow kicks. Immediatly I felt that I really wanted to bend my lower leg back as much as possible as the kick was coming in, so that’s probably the correct way to do it. It’s not bad to practice like this once in a while, since in a street fight I won’t have time to put my shin guards on!

    By the way, I could see the checking defense possibly working against an opponent approximately your own size or smaller, but what if he’s bigger? His leg is going to be bigger, his shin tougher and all that extra weight… if you go shin against shin, he’s probably going to win. I have to consider things like that because I’m not too big myself and running into someone heavier is definitly a possibility.

    Also, how much shin conditioning would be considered safe? Seems if you do it so much that you can kick iron poles without feeling pain, you’d face a lot of problems down the road. 🙁 But if you do it a little bit that should be all right, shouldn’t it?

    #36029
    wim
    Member

    Are you pulling your toes up while checking?

    #36036
    caliwt
    Member

    Yes, the thigh can do that. If you are close enough or moving in.

    but other options are nice, so you need answers at each aspect of a kickers range, and if you are standing, moving in, or on your back being kicked from above.

    and if using Hicks Law, shouldn’t your counters to knees also be the same answer as for kicks? I think a knee to the thigh might really be punishing!!

    (who was Hicks anyway?)

    8)

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