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With an officer on there back and the attacker having cross body control going for your weapon, any suggestions on retention technique. This is what we came up with:
Trap attackers hand/weapon
Shrimp/drive reaction hand into their elbow as you roll onto your weapon.
Either Rolling them over or injuring there elbow/arm.We also discussed accessing K-Bar knife as an option..
dave
Re: Cross Body Escape
More details please. Let’s assume officer is right handed, holster/gun is on right hip, and you’re looking down at him from above so that officer’s head is at 12 o’clock and feet at 6. If we’re talking about a bad guy being on top of the officer and in side control (perpendicular), is the BG oriented with his feet at 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock? Where are the officer’s arms and hands – e.g. are they underneath the BG or “free” where he can put both his hands on top of his own head; can he freely touch his gun/holster with his primary gun hand? Does the BG already have a grip on the gun or is he moving/reaching towards it? Which of the BG’s hands is gripping or reaching (or both hands)? How much room or space is there between the chests/bodies of the BG and officer? What kind of base does the BG have – does he feel experienced or just happens to be on the officer’s side and perpendicular? Etc…
Re: Cross Body Escape
Let’s assume officer is right handed, holster/gun is on right hip, and you’re looking down at him from above so that officer’s head is at 12 o’clock and feet at 6. If we’re talking about a bad guy being on top of the officer and in side control (perpendicular), is the BG oriented with his feet at 3 o’clock
Officers hands are Free..
Officer can he freely touch his gun/holster with his primary gun hand..
BG has grip on gun with their right hand…
BG is low on knees and there is a small amount of space..Re: Cross Body Escape
Ok thanks. Where is BG’s left hand? Is the officer carrying a back up gun (if so, what kind and where) or a knife (if so, fixed or folding and where)? Is BG centered on officer’s chest or is BG closer to stomach or higher close to head?
Re: Cross Body Escape
BG left hand is based on the ground and is more closer to waist than head.
Officer has no back up gun..Re: Cross Body Escape
Ok, I would probably need to feel/see the rest of the details (e.g. weight distribution, clothing worn, exact positioning of BG’s body and limbs, if BG is attacking me as well as trying to remove weapon, BG’s “felt” skill level, size/strength comparison, how close BG is to removing my weapon, etc). Some things you could try after locking down the BG’s right hand down on your gun with your hand:
Left hand retrieves a knife from non-gun side of body and uses it against the BG’s neck, kidneys, perenium, or other targets.
Left hand retrieves an expandable baton from non-gun side and uses it like a pocket stick/hammer fist against BG’s head.
Left hand retrieves a pen from breast pocket and uses it against the BG’s neck/face.
Left hand reaches over BG’s shoulder and fishhooks the right side of his mouth/cheek or rips the right ear.
Left hand reaches over BG’s shoulder and rakes/gouges eyes and face of BG.Bumping hips up, turning towards BG, left elbow/forearm into BG’s hip flexor area, shrimping hips away, and trying to transition to guard (yes, this “exposes” the weapon a little more). If BG pushes forward to try to counter shrimp and close gap, then you could suddenly go with that momentum, bump hips, grab back of pants or belt with left hand (or left hand scoops underneath and levers up on far side of body) and roll BG across your body and over his right shoulder (towards between 10-11 o’clock). If you are able to slide your left knee in across his hips, you could possibly use that to help lever him up and roll him over.
Or maybe, left hand shoots underneath BG to far side of his body. Bump hips and lever up with arm to dislodge his body on top of yours up and over your head (towards 11-12 o’clock) and then come up onto your knees over your right side/shoulder.
If BG isn’t very skilled or sensitive/aware, you could target his right leg with your left arm – trapping it or undercutting it (penciling his right side) and then bumping your hips up and rolling over to your left (towards 1-2 o’clock).
I Might go with rolling onto my gun or towards my right (9 o’clock) maybe if my gun was already starting to come out and I didn’t have a good lock on his right hand/wrist. Normally I prefer to turn to face and would rather not to give my back.
I’m sure more ideas will come to me later. Hopefully, I’ll remember to play around with this scenario tomorrow during morning training/workout…
Re: Cross Body Escape
So, the BG is based on the opposite side of the gun? He’s reaching over the officer’s body with his right hand to get to the gun, correct? If so, his base would be very weak. Shrimp so the gun is between you and the ground. This will either damage the BGs hand or pin it, not allowing him to use it as a pedestal. Continue to roll while grabbing the BG with the left hand / arm and reverse him to his back. Get up and SMASH him.
Re: Cross Body Escape
Got to play around a little bit yesterday.
If BG is “higher up” away from you, e.g. yanking the gun up and out (diagonally upwards), you have more room to go to guard. If BG is “lower down” on top of you, e.g. yanking the gun out parallel to the ground, it will be easier to bump him and/or roll (and you can also bump and shrimp to guard as well). If he is really low, you may also be able to trap his elbow under your arm when you clamp down on his hand with yours. We also played around with kicking out and elevatoring the BG’s left knee/leg while he is in guard…
I didn’t spend much time on immediately rolling 90 degrees sideways and onto my gun. I’m leery about giving up my back, about not being able to complete the roll if the BG’s weight distribution is too far back, and about not being able to roll over my gun – especially if the handle has been pulled out sideways and becomes wedged like a kickstand…
Re: Cross Body Escape
If officer is on his back, BG in side control using, trap hand on gun immediately with same side hand, e.g. holster on right hip, use right hand.
*Important – You must do everything you can to ensure that the gun stays trapped in your holster!
If BG is wearing long sleeve clothing such as a jacket, use your left hand to grab the jacket behind the tricep of the arm he is using to grab your weapon. Push him away with your left hand (very important to keep grip of jacket throughout the whole escape), at the same time shrimp your right hip (gun) to the ground. Between the pressure of you pushing his arm and the simultaneous shrimp, he should lose solid position and hopefully the grip on your gun.
Continue to shrimp your legs from under BG’s body to break contact and escalate.
There is no danger of back exposure since you are controlling the arm behind the tricep throught the escape.
If BG is not wearing long sleeves, instead, place your left thumb, thumb down into his armpit, with fingers pointed up and rolling over his shoulder, this provides a good control point.
Hope this helps.
Re: Cross Body Escape
Scenario:
Officer on his back, gun on right hip
BG in cross body (legs on LEO’s left side) using right hand to reach across and grab LEO’s gun.
—————————————————————————————————-Immediately trap BG’s hand on top of gun and push down keeping gun in holster.
Using your left hand, reach across to BG’s right tricep (if BG is wearing long sleeves e.g. jacket) grab the jacket behind the tricep and push BG’s towards your feet, simultaneously shrimping your hips away and your right hip (gun side) to the ground.The force of you pushing the arm and shrimping your hips away, should release his grip (notice I said should, nothing is 110%). If grip is released, continue to push suspect away (maintain your grip) continue to shrimp coming up to your right elbow, then hand and escape your legs. break contact and escalate.
If grip doesn’t break, BG will still be in an off balance position, continue push, shrimp and escape your legs.
If BG has nothing to grab, place your left thumb, thumb-down into his armpit with your fingers pointing up and laying over BG’s shoulder. This provides a very strong control point.
As far as being concerned with back exposure, there is no threat as long as you maintain control with your left hand.
Peace!
Hope this helps.
Re: Cross Body Escape
Or maybe, left hand shoots underneath BG to far side of his body. Bump hips and lever up with arm to dislodge his body on top of yours up and over your head (towards 11-12 o’clock) and then come up onto your knees over your right side/shoulder.
If BG isn’t very skilled or sensitive/aware, you could target his right leg with your left arm – trapping it or undercutting it (penciling his right side) and then bumping your hips up and rolling over to your left (towards 1-2 o’clock).
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