Neck Cranks

[Jarett]

Would regularly performing neck stretches and/or exercises help reduce one's susceptibility to neck cranks?

[Nixxon]

Doubt it, neck muscles are not really designed for strength in that context. They are a small connective muscle group. If somone is cranking on your neck they are recruiting bicep, shoulder, back muscles against your neck. Who's utilizing more power?

The attacker.

Best way to avoid a neck crank is to protect yourself against anyone getting close to your neck. If they do then use combatives. Groin, eyes, throat, pressure points. IMO a neck crank in a fight is a fight easily won from my perspective. It leaves them open for pretty much anything.

[Jarett]

K, got it. Thanks!

[CLFMak]

Originally Posted by Nixxon

Best way to avoid a neck crank is to protect yourself against anyone getting close to your neck. If they do then use combatives. Groin, eyes, throat, pressure points. IMO a neck crank in a fight is a fight easily won from my perspective. It leaves them open for pretty much anything.

If they know how to do a proper neck crank, its a fight easilly one from their perspective.

[Nixxon]

How so? Maybe I'm not thinking of the correct position when I'm thinking of a neck crank. Can you explain the choreography?

[CLFMak]

There's lots of ways to do neck cranks, and a lot of them don't give you the option of striking them to escape. One example is the crucifix neck crank, done here by Rickson Gracie applying 600lbs of force to the neck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T82QDpy2DEo
Hardly easilly won by the defender with both arms trapped and the neck being wrenched with hundreds of pounds of strain.
Here's another one from Carl Cestari's material:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sipKxGNH7y8
That one appears a lot in silat as a takedown. Only one hand is free to attack, and its not in a position where it can do anything fight stopping. Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eX3CPNBtfc
Neck crank as don in catch wrestling (one of the guys I train with learned this in dumog and uses it with good success). Again, no opportunity to use your hands to counter.

[Nixxon]

Gah, no youtube on my work computer but I'll look @ it when I get home.

[Nixxon]

Originally Posted by CLFMak

There's lots of ways to do neck cranks, and a lot of them don't give you the option of striking them to escape. One example is the crucifix neck crank, done here by Rickson Gracie applying 600lbs of force to the neck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T82QDpy2DEo
Hardly easilly won by the defender with both arms trapped and the neck being wrenched with hundreds of pounds of strain.
Here's another one from Carl Cestari's material:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sipKxGNH7y8
That one appears a lot in silat as a takedown. Only one hand is free to attack, and its not in a position where it can do anything fight stopping. Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eX3CPNBtfc
Neck crank as don in catch wrestling (one of the guys I train with learned this in dumog and uses it with good success). Again, no opportunity to use your hands to counter.

Crucifix- Wats to keep you from using the trapped arm in the legs from elbowing the groin?
Silat- Groin exposed again. It only takes 1 hand to grab, twist and rip.
Catch Wrestling- He obviously has 1 hand free to tap, whats to keep him from gouging his opponents eye, ripping his ear, elbowing down on the groin?


Also keep in mind that GETTING that those positions with somone using strikes as a defense is kind of unlikely.... nobody is going to bear hug me or wrestle me to the ground without giving something up on the way down and once down there, and on my back if they didn't disengage I would immedietly go for something pretty brutal and not give them a chance to grab up my head/neck/face

[CLFMak]

Crucifix- there really shouldn't be enough space to hit the groin hard enough to effect a release.
Silat- When I do this I like to grab their free arm with my free arm. It protects against potential arm flailing and can make it easier to pull them through to a takedown.
Catch- the hand can't reach the eyes, ear etc and can't use any real power except for grip strength, and the groin is not available to be elbowed, because of the hip angle and the pressure on the body (and really the arm shouldn't be able to articulate that far down).

[Nixxon]

I still hold told my last statement in the above post. Getting into that position in a self defense situation is highly unlikely.

[CLFMak]

The standing one is about as easy to get as a headlock, which comes up a whole lot, but very few people will go for it.

[Nixxon]

Originally Posted by CLFMak

The standing one is about as easy to get as a headlock, which comes up a whole lot, but very few people will go for it.

If any fight ends up in a headlock for anyone who knows a little about what they are doing that is going to be a fight well won for the person in it.

[CLFMak]

I would agree with the statement that the neck cranks aren't something that are worth training if you are only interested in self defense, because most people don't know how to do them well. However, like many submissions, they are very hard to escape from, and if the person is a good grappler they can use superior distancing and timing to achieve them against someone who is trying to punch, kick etc.

[Rick Prado]

Originally Posted by Nixxon

If any fight ends up in a headlock for anyone who knows a little about what they are doing that is going to be a fight well won for the person in it.

Obviously, you are convinced that they cannot work, making it difficult to try and change your mind.

They do work, if properly applied. The amount of force on the neck, face, and the blood loss to the brain is sometimes immediate, causing a variety of things to happen to you, making your defenses very difficult.

Even if you don't get the naked choke for example, you can go into a face bar, forearm across the jaw, across the nose, while kicking out the opponents knees. A face bar across the nose is very painful, causing your eyes to tear up, distorting your vision, making your life very difficult.

Just like arm locks and joint manipulations, they are usually more effective after a strike.

.02

[Nixxon]

I'll have to get put in one and try it out I guess.

[Oneness]

Most of the neck cranks when done properly will add tremendous pain to the muscles and spine. Some can even break an opponentís neck. A good neck crank is like a good Thai Clinch. The only way out is when that person decides to let you out.

The neck cranks on the ground, you can get out of by simply bucking and or shrimping. There is a little more involved, but we are not really discussing exactly how to get out of them. The ones on your feet are some times more difficult, but we have come up with some good escapes that seem to work, if recognized soon enough.

Some people train on these like they simply throwing a right straight.. So thinking you wonít get caught in one is a bad theory, IMO. The biggest thing attackers have over most people is that they have done it under stress in real situations. They have learned to work the kinks out.

Also most basic neck cranks are taught to wrestlers from day one. Their mentality is ëif you control the head, you control the rest of the body.í Itís a fairly simple rule that keeps fairly true. So a wrestler will attack your head and most have learned to apply their techniques under stress, mind you not with some one kicking, biting and punching; so you do have a chance of getting out. But remember if itís locked in they are in the dominant position, punching them in the groin may not let you out; itís most likely only going to piss them off, forcing them to break your neck or continue punching or elbowing until your out.

[Oneness]

Wow, sorry about my post, but thats what you get when you cut and paste from word.

[La Revancha]

If I may chime in,

First, to Jarrett:

Yes, I believe building neck strength and flexbility can improve crank resistence, BUT ONLY TO A DEGREE. Both phenotype and environmental factors (wrestling in school, technical practice) come into play. For example, having a bulky neck, and knowing how to defend submissions, have saved me several times against guillotines, lapel chokes, and crucifixes (this is a go-to move for a black belt buddy of mine....I hate it).

And yes, I have seen the likes of CJ's Dad quickly apply headlocks (sometimes with the assistance of a knife) on resistant, sometimes armed, attackers. And like he said, he is not normal, so be prepared to train for ANYTHING!!

Which lends more credibility to this:

Originally Posted by Oneness

Some people train on these like they simply throwing a right straight.. So thinking you wonít get caught in one is a bad theory, IMO. The biggest thing attackers have over most people is that they have done it under stress in real situations. They have learned to work the kinks out.

A question for you, Nixxon,

In other words, are you certain you can land the elbow to the groin, hard enough for the guy to let go no less, before the crucifix choke is locked in? Have you ever tried this against someone who has learned to work the kinks out, like a bjj black belt?

Unless your training allows for dirty striking and subs, how can you be genuinely certain?

[Nixxon]

Originally Posted by La Revancha

A question for you, Nixxon,

In other words, are you certain you can land the elbow to the groin, hard enough for the guy to let go no less, before the crucifix choke is locked in? Have you ever tried this against someone who has learned to work the kinks out, like a bjj black belt?

Unless your training allows for dirty striking and subs, how can you be genuinely certain?

I'm not genuinely certain that any technique will work for every situation and I can't be sure that groin strikes or whatever will work 100% of the time or 50% of the time for that matter. Its all situational. But, from my point of view a neck crank is something that is probably not something that comes up in a self defense situation alot, and if it does I feel that because there are alot more factors that come into play with self defense vs. BJJ (strikes, fighting dirty etc) its alot easier to escape a crank or not even be put into that situation in the first place.

Black Belt... I'll just let them tie me a knot. I've never rolled with one but I know by rolling with the purples in my class that I'm nowhere near thier skill level and even with strikes I would probably get locked into one if that was thier primary focus. Luckily I'm going to hope that A) Thugs/Punks don't know black belt level BJJ and/or B) That somone who trains in a martial art with that kind of conviction built some character along the way and wouldn't become a thug/punk.

A crank isn't impossible by any means, but I think from a self defense point of view a crank is something that is rarely seen and hard to apply. I wish my knee wasn't torn up so I could go test escapes.

Of course you have probably encountered alot more cranks than I since you've been doing JJ for alot longer than I. You can probably speak from experiance where I'm speaking from a theoretical perspective.

[JakeWrestler]

We put out a pretty good DVD on neck cranks where Erik Paulson just goes to town on countless cranks and set-ups:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nL8u-VKXHY

Neck cranks are no joke.

[leejam99]

ugg... i hate neck cranks. nothing like not being able to turn your head after a good neck crank. Its a big pain in your normal life when you have to turn your entire body to look to any direction than straight!

[nosborne]

never underestimate TEETH, if any part of the attacker is close by!!

[CLFMak]

Originally Posted by nosborne

never underestimate TEETH, if any part of the attacker is close by!!

Never overestimate teeth when your attacker is weighing down on you controlling your neck.

[cav]

Originally Posted by CJs Dad

Ohh I don't know, I'd take that bet. In fact if La Rev seeís this post he can attest to how often I get people in that situation in multiple attacker drills. I feel very comfortable using free standing neck cranks as head control to stack people.

Free standing guillotines and figure fours are my friend. ñ but then again Iím not normal.

I want to vouch for this one. I watched CJ's Dad use two attackers heads as fall-breaks simultaneously when they tried to take him down [Hi-five on that one]. He sat there and kept them from swinging at him while he was on the floor for a decent count.

[cav]

Originally Posted by leejam99

ugg... i hate neck cranks. nothing like not being able to turn your head after a good neck crank. Its a big pain in your normal life when you have to turn your entire body to look to any direction than straight!

Did that tube of rub help at all that night a couple months back when you were too sore to fully demo the moves? It's helped me after taking the Thu L1, L2, L1 back-to-back combo.

[leejam99]

not really...it was jacked up for about a week and a half....

[cav]

Originally Posted by CJs Dad

Ahh the double guillotine take down ñ fun stuff. Especially since Chris Cook is 6í9î 300+lbs. I love multiple attacker drills.

I kinda felt bad cause they both face planted pretty hard but there was no way for me to control the takedown.

LeeJam had us doing a great multi-attacker drill yesterday from a scenario that he picked up from somebody who actually experienced it that he met recently.

Anyhow, imagine my surprise when he put me in a bear hug and lifted me off the ground for me to do the defense. (one attacker was in front of me, the other attacker was to whaling on my head)

I don't think you have to worry about that day you took them down, Chris was up and ready to give others hell, and if I remember right, he stepped up and volunteered to be the man in the middle :)