How to train without losing muscle mass

[JonJ480]

I know this may seem like a stupid question, but I am having difficulty with this one. If anyone has any clues to help me with this I would greatly appreciate it.

Last summer, I was probably at the height of my weight training (this is prior to starting Krav training in December). I am 6'3" at that point I was about 230lbs (I was kind of a beast) with about 11% bodyfat.

Since beginning Krav training, I am down to about 189lbs with about 8-9% bodyfat. I have lost some muscle mass, gained a TON of flexibility, my cardio is the best it has ever been, and overall, I am in MUCH better shape.

I do not lift nearly as much as I used to, and found that when I do (using the same type of routine as I was doing last summer) I lose flexibility, and my cardio goes to crap.

I was wondering what you all do to maintain muscle mass while still training in Krav on a regular basis?

My weight routine consisted of very heavy weights, 2 sets to failure. For example, I would bench 345 (flat on a smith machine) about 5-6 times for 2 sets, as soon as I hit 7 reps, I would up the weight.

I know it doesn't make much sense to continue to weight train this way (I will kill myself if I do, I am going to Krav for 1 or 2 classes a day about 5 times a week) and I do not want to trade flexibility for the size that I had, I just want to pack a little more size on.

I am not taking any supplements other than multivitamins (I cannot take anything due to pending fertility treatments my wife and I are going through), and I know the caloric intake that I needed before to put on mass, it just seems that that is not enough anymore.

What kinds of weight routines do you all have to maintain size and strength while still staying in "fighting shape"?

Any insights to this would be appreciated, I know that there are a ton of dynamics and I am not getting detailed about diet, etc, I am really looking for weight training suggestions.

I wasn't sure if this thread should go here or in the lounge, if it should go there, feel free to move it. Thank you all in advance.

Jon

[Psyops]

Hello Jon,

I can relate a bit here. When I played football the biggest challenge for most of us was exactly what you are facing. So to combat this we went to a three day cycle. Monday, Wed, Fri and we only did core lifts. Squats, Bench, Pulldowns etc... These were also supplemented with at least one power lift ie, Cleans, Jerks, Snatch, deadlifts.

Caloric intake is important but also protein intake. Three to four Whey protein smoothies to your diet, especially after dinner. Lastly your sleep is very important. For every hour of activity you need an additional hour of sleep.

I hope this helps

[Lcash]

If you are doing 2 a day Krav training 5 times a week there is no way on earth you will ever maintain muscle mass without real heavy protien intake. Even then you are not allowing the muscle to rebuild so it is in a constant catabilic state. Imagine lifting like you were before but doing the same lifts 2 different times per day for 5 days a week. How much muscle do you think you would maintain with that regiment?

Lcash

[kvmorl]

Good topic, i've been wondering the same as i have noticed muscle mass loss. How can i determine proper amount of protein intake without going over and increasing fat?

Is there a formula or is a play by feel sorta thing?

[Lcash]

There is a formula. I will dig into my bag of tricks and find it for you. may take a few minutes. I have been doing heavy lifting for quite a few years so i have some experience with this. (400lb Bench at age 50) :D

Lcash

[Lcash]

To maintain muscle mass you need to do a few things. Eat right and rest. Your diet should consist of ~1.5 grams of protein for each pound of body weight. This is to maintain your weight. To gain muscle increase that to 2 grams. It is better to eat 5-6 small meals per day with a combination of protein, fat, and carbs. make sure that they are good carbs such as a potato, sweet potato is better than white. Among white potato's the Red skinned are better than Russets. They burn slower and reduce the insulin spike associated with carbohydrates. The fats should be good fats such as Almonds, Olive oil (cold pressed, do not cook with olive oil) Canola oil etc. Stay away from corn oil. Meats should be lean.

Secondly you should allow your body to rest. Muscle is built while sleeping not exercising. If you do not rest then you continually tear down the muscle tissue. If you train every day with the same muscle groups you will stay in a condition known as catabolism. That is where the body stops burning fat and carbs and will burn muscle tissue instead. If this is an issue of losing too much muscle then you need at least one day of rest between workouts.

Lcash

[Nickolas Cook]

I've lost muscle mass, but sure have gained a lot more tone and flexability. I lift weights (with some light cardio mixed in to get the heartrate up) and notice the muscle I have now means more to the lifting---if that makes any sense. I was never one to ego lift, cause that can lead to some nasty injuries, so i don't miss the whole 'me He Man, see me lift big bar' notion. I've actually found myself enjoying the weights again after joining Krav. Now it's not so much I'm weight lifting to get big; it's that I'm lifting to make the Krav workouts easier. HA!

[jjbklb]

My understanding is that lifting very heavy weight with low reps builds strength

Lifting lighter weights with high reps builds bulk

[Lcash]

Originally Posted by jjbklb

My understanding is that lifting very heavy weight with low reps builds strength

Lifting lighter weights with high reps builds bulk

Not really. Heavy weight low reps will build strength and bulk, lighter weight and higher reps builds endurance and density. Of course the best way to work out for the best benefit is to mix it up on a cycle of about 12 weeks duration. 12 weeks of heavy weight low reps and 12 weeks of lighter weights and higher reps.

For those that do not have alot of time for a workout the best weightlifting regiment only takes around 20-30 minutes per day. An example is as follows: For day one Chest and Triceps. Do 1 set of 12 with a light weight on the pec deck or flat bench flys. Follow after a rest with 1 set of 10 reps with a medium weight. Follow this with a set of the heaviest weight that you can do 6 good reps to failure. Without rest get on the flat bench (bench press) and do 1 set to failure with a weight that you can only do 6-7 reps. When you are finished with that you are done with the chest. Follow that with a set of cable push downs for the triceps with a weight that you fail at 10 reps. Immediately without rest lower the weight by 1/2 and continue to failure. You are now done with the triceps.

The principal behind this is simple. Most folks who work out with heavy weight on a bench will fail the triceps before they adequately stimulate the pec. This leads to failure of the exercise. Following the above routine you will pre-exhaust the Pec (chest muscle) before you ever get on the bench. This way the pec muscles will be stimulated sufficiently to grow without overworking the triceps.

Lcash

[jjbklb]

I find vertical dips help my triceps development.I can move more weight (my body weight) than I can do on a triceps pulldown.One limitation on the pulldown is how much weight your lower back can handle,even with a belt.

[Lcash]

That will work also as long as you use an assisted machine so you can lower the weight for the second set to failure. Believe me, you will pack on the size and also great strength gains using this formula. The official term for this is a superset. Many of the top bodybuilders are using a similar formulas to maximize their time in the gym and also the physiological response of the body.

Lcash

[tchort64]

You guys are all very helpful and I enjoy reading your well informed opinions . Thanks

[JonJ480]

Thank you all for your suggestions, I have been rather busy with work and haven't had a chance to check back. I do think I have been overtraining. I have been forced to limit training over the last two weeks (stitches in my brow from an elbow...) and have noticed a difference in my size due to the increased rest. Obviousely it is not a huge difference due to it only being 2 weeks, but I can feel it.

[MikeRob]

Originally Posted by JonJ480

Thank you all for your suggestions, I have been rather busy with work and haven't had a chance to check back. I do think I have been overtraining. I have been forced to limit training over the last two weeks (stitches in my brow from an elbow...) and have noticed a difference in my size due to the increased rest. Obviousely it is not a huge difference due to it only being 2 weeks, but I can feel it.

I myself enjoy lifting weights and do so to increase muscle mass. I am skinny by nature but have put on some very decent muscle size. I went from 175 lbs. to almost 200 lbs (6' tall).

Although I am not in KM yet, I am VERY active - boxing, martial arts, sprints, jogging, you name it...

What works for me is 1) Obviously a high calorie diet and 2) The proper weight training schedule.

Train twice per week, yes only twice. This routine will also build you up as it does with me. You work the big lifts and lift heavy, but lots of volume in sets. It's basically a push/pull routine. Take plenty of rests between sets and relax as you workout.

Monday: Push

1) Bench Press: Pyramid the weight. Start light for 15 reps and go down to doubles and triples, then back up again. This should take you 10-15 sets.

2) Dumbbell Curls: Knock out about 6-8 sets of heavy dumbbell curls, alternating each arm. Push this one until it hurts (in a good way).

3) Behind the Neck Press (or in front if your shoulders have problems). The king of boulder shoulders and meaty triceps, this lift should be one carefully but not baby it. Like the bench press start light, go heavy, then back up. Do these standing as to work the back.

4) Weighted Dips: 5-6 sets of 5-15 reps. Vary as to you liking. Sometimes I like to pump out sets without extra weight, but you can also pyramid as well by hanging weights from your waist.

That's all for workout 1.

Thursday: Pull

1) Squats Squats Squats - The king if size. I like to go heavy for sets of 5 reps, then at the end one all out set of 20 reps where you have to wait 5-6 seconds with the weight on your back between each rep. These are killers and will add mass to your whole body.

2) Chins (or pull-ups). Do as many as you can for as many sets as you like.

3) Barbell Rows: With a close grip and do not stiffen your back too much, work heavy sets of 5-6 reps.

4) Deadlift (((or))) Power Cleans: Nothing too crazy, about 5-6 heavy sets of 5 reps.

5) Triceps Push downs: If you have the energy then knock out about 5 sets of 10 reps. I also like to use the French press (lying extension.

- - - Now I realize this does not look like much on paper, but if you are truly giving it all you got, eat lots of food and protein, and strive to add weight to the bar each week - then I guarantee you that you will put on muscle, even with all of your Krav Maga classes.

- Mike

[garddawg]

I started coaching 30 years ago. Working out and eating correctly as described in this thread will pack on size. However, it is my experience that people who work out this way are unable to bring their strength or power to bear in any useful fashion once their heart rate hits 150-160 beats per minute.
If you are training to fight, the consideration should be am I able to use my weight in a productive application of force throughout the fight.

[unstpabl1]

Whats the point of maintaining mass if you lose functionality? Or better yet why do you need the extra mass? You've shown remarkable improvement in all the Toughness catagories

[JonJ480]

Those are both very good points. Functionality-wise, I am in the best shape of my life, (at 35 no less!!). It is my wife, mostly who is missing some of the size from before. She does appreciate the fact that my muscles are not "Show" muscles now, and that they are "Go" muscles. I was just trying to find a happy medium I guess. I lasted through 20 minutes of sparring in Fight class tonight, then did a ground class after and I would never have been able to do that last year.

I do not want to sacrifice that for a little more size, just seeing if there was a "best of both worlds" alternative.

[Panphage]

If you're consuming the same amount of calories that you did before you started KM you're going to lose muscle mass. At 8-9% BF the only place your body is going to be able to pull energy from is your muscles if you don't eat enough.

Additionally, you're not going to stay a "monster" if you cut your lifts. The body does not naturally want to stay that size.

Eat heavy, lift heavy.

Pan

[big_gene75]

I relatively new to the MA scene and have the same issues of losing mass while training. Now I'm 5'11 about 205 and have been training in BJJ for a little over a month as well as KM (2nd KM class was yeserday) and have noticed that though I may weigh the same I see a difference in how my clothes fit and basically just how I look as opposed to what I looked like about 2-3 months ago. Before training I would go to the gym 5-6 days a week training a body part a day - mostly consisting of 5-6 exercises doing reps of 12,10,8 and 6. I've always been skin and bones until about 7 years ago (32 now) and I really don't want to get back to that skin and bones phase of my life. I'd like to maintain some muscle mass but I do realize my old schedule will not work with taking BJJ 2xs a week as well as KM 2xs a week. I see all of the different suggestions posted and now I think I am more confused then I was before joining the forums. Idealy I'd like to get down to about 190lbs but still have some decent mass to me but with a schedule like mine (BJJ 2xs a/wk and KM 2xs a/wk) it hard to figure out a good workout schedule. Does anyone have any training suggestions that may help me personally maintain some mass and strength as well as something that fits in the available time slots I have to workout that is a complete workout? MY schedule looks like this: Sun BBJ drills class (no rolling), Mon off, Tues KM fitness class, Wed BJJ, Thurs off, Fri off and Sat KM training. I am also looking to rotate the fitness class every other week so some Tues I will be skipping the fitness class and actually training. Any suggestion are appreciated.

Thanks!
-Gene

[MikeRob]

Originally Posted by big_gene75

Does anyone have any training suggestions that may help me personally maintain some mass and strength as well as something that fits in the available time slots I have to workout that is a complete workout? MY schedule looks like this: Sun BBJ drills class (no rolling), Mon off, Tues KM fitness class, Wed BJJ, Thurs off, Fri off and Sat KM training.
-Gene

I just posted a great mass-building workout below that would fit your Monday & Thursday schedule.

This type of training goes back to the old-timers who put on tremendous size with basic lifts: Peary Radar, John McCallum, and Brooks Kubik who wrote "Dinosaur Training" is a brick.

As far as comments on 'why have show muscles' - I like them. It's a challenge to build your body, and it feels great.

- Mike

[big_gene75]

Hi MikeRob,

I just sent you a PM regarding the workout you have posted.

Thanks!
-Gene

[garddawg]

Mirror muscles or working out for size is just fine if that is your goal, cool. Just be aware of what you are doing and that you likely are losing functionality. There is a reason the Marine Corps, mandates CrossFit type training in there PT, and the SEAL's have adopted it. It is a different goal.

[big_gene75]

Garddawg is there a good crossfit workout that gives a total body workout in say 2 or 3 days?

[garddawg]

Gene,
What do you mean by total body workout? Almost all our workouts involve the whole body.

[big_gene75]

Well looking at the forums on the link you have posted it seems that people were talking about a particular exercise whether it be a press or pull. Is there a website to go to such as crossfit.com or something where there are examples of a total body workout that can be done in 2 or 3 days

[garddawg]

www.CrossFit.com

My workouts for the last couple of days were:
Saturday
5 rounds of 7 Reps of "The Bear":
Power Clean
Front Squat
Push Press
Back Squat
Push Press
= 1 Rep

Monday
Deadlift
3 x 310 x 3
260 x 21

5 rounds
10 box jumps, 42"
10 Hang Power snatch

Tuesday
As Many Rounds As Possible in 20 Minutes of
200 M Sprint
10 Burpees
10 Pullups
10 Burpees
10 Pull ups

Thinking I pretty much covered my whole body. At least I'm hobbling around today like I covered my whole body.

[big_gene75]

And a workout similiar to the one that you posted/doing is helping you maintain muscle tone as well as strength

[garddawg]

I weigh 170#'s. I deadlift 2x my bodyweight, Power Clean over 200#'s. Strong enough I think. Here is a vid from a couple weeks ago you can decide if the workouts keep my 49 year old butt toned. Now where is the laughing smilie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8v_f-4nfgY

[big_gene75]

Nothing like tooting your on horn! LOL! Just playing! Thanks for all you advice and replies! I'm trying to get an idea of what to do come next week when I start working out and training together. Thanks again!

[garddawg]

Prefer to show off the people I train, but seemed appropriate here, but would have been better highlighted with laughter.

[big_gene75]

Definitely looked harder then I was imagining in my head. I'm going to look at the website tonight and try to come up with some type of workout for me. The one you posted is a little too advanced for me. Thanks again!

[garddawg]

There is a button on the left side of the mainpage at www.CrossFit.com marked "Start Here", good place to begin.

[big_gene75]

Ok thanks!

[OFsoccer7]

I have been doing Krav Maga for about a month and a half and have noticed a decrease in muscle mass. I do Krav on Monday, Tuesday, i lift weights on wednesday, i do BJJ on thursday, rest friday, do krav on saturday and lift weights, and run about six miles on sunday. Also, i do ab workouts every other day. My question is how can I continue to do Krav Maga and maintain my muscle mass or improve it?