False Instructor

[jonrogers44]

I posted on here a few months ago because I had moved to a new area and the intructor here was not teaching Krav.

I asked him what was going on and he told me that previously someone else had been teaching and he was going back to the basics here at the begining of the next month.

Well, he hasn't. He says that the Krav knife vs empty hand block was "antiquated". And the knife could come out and cut you. So, he has shown us two different blocks. One is a block, then pushing the hand, then hitting the hand on the thumb trying to break it. Thats just way too much for me. We are also being taught what looks like Kali stick fighting.

I have told a couple of students that this isn't Krav. And another student who has prior training has agreed with me that we are not being taught Krav.

I am under membership contract with him till january then I am gone, but my question is , after I leave that place who do I tell about whats going on there?

And I would love for someone to come in with authority and catch him teaching what he calls Krav...and he also says that KMWW isnt up to date.....looks like I will be training alone again.

[Kirsten]

jonrogers44

Sorry to hear you are having a bad experience. I am going to assume this instructor is a KMW licensee? If so, then the most you can do is email KMW regarding the issue. I would imagine that with the attitude you explained, they won't make it much further with KMW if they are.

KMW is up to date for what is currently happening in the United States of America. It may not be the newest and greatest cool super-fly thing from Israel, but we have dramatically different enviroments. Keep in mind, when Darren brought us KM it was for Law Enforcement. Out of that grew the civilian program. I can tell you that the threats we encounter in LE are very well suited to the KMW self-defenses and if there are modifications due in the system then they get addressed. Unfortunately every now and again a guy gets a little certification or rank under them and thinks that they are the best thing to happen to KM since sliced bread and start modifying the defenses to "make them their own".

I would agree that it may be time to move on...

[Kevin Mack]

"Keep in mind, when Darren brought us KM it was for Law Enforcement. Out of that grew the civilian program."

um...what do you mean by that? Do you mean your school?
Cause Darren was teaching KM for civilians for years before teaching LE

[phlegmon27]

PM sent.

[KMMeanMom]

I just came across this posting. I take class here and find the program exceptional. I love coming to this forum and reading everyones training tips and success stories. Normally this is such a positive place to surf.

I have been a student here for years. I go to class every week and have only partnered with Jon once or twice. Those classes were a terrible experience as you continually complained about your previous instructors, your financial difficulites and your horrible job at the Norfolks Sheriffs Department (you are lucky to have a job, I was recently laid off). Not to mention, coming to class while sick and then bragging you were going to become the instructor so you don't have to pay for classes. (suprising what people can learn being aware of their surroundings). Crazy, I come to learn combat/self defense techniques and work out, do I really want to take class from a know it all, when I can take class from the well rounded, qualified instructors they currently have. Thankfully, this seems to not have worked out; seeing the great instructors have a student mentality, that you seem to lack.

Jon....if you can't afford to train, maybe you should call them to work something out. I personally witnessed you talking with the lady behind the front desk, she was saying if you can't afford the down payment, then go ahead and pay what you can now. Hello......keep your unprofessionalism and immaturity somewhere else, I don't want to see it here. Check your contract, I pay for Combat Systems training and appreciate all I have been taught, especially the "after class" knife and stick training, love that our instructors always goes above and beyond for us.

I have forwarded this link to several others that train with us and the instructor as well. Maybe if you came to class more you'd be learning more too.

[BDKing]

Thanks for send me this link, sorry I am just replying now. I lack tolerance for internet opinions, when I went to class last week, I actually pulled Jon's class count card. I wasn't suprised to see that has not attended the seminars, clinics and workshops they have offered. I have attended more classes in the past three weeks then he has since he signed up.

I have been training here in Virginia Beach for over 2 years. I am a proud Marine, and have traveled from country to country, training whenever, however and whereever I can. I am personally 100% satisified with my combat/km and self defense training they are providing. I appreciate them going the extra mile, allowing me to come in during off hours to get some extra floor time.

I have two brotherhoods, those I serve with and those I train with.....HOORAH.

On a positive note, great forum, can't wait to come back and read up on some of the topics.

[jonrogers44]

Actually I have never complained about my previous instructors i still have contact with them, they are great people. And Honestly, I have a very good job that I enjoy, I just wish it payed more. And I have no disagreement with anyone over the level of professionalism that the instructors and staff have at ATAKICK. They are very helpyful, and kind. HOWEVER, the instrcutor even told me that his knife defenses were not KRAV, but something he learned in turkey. And another student has agreed he has a hybrid style that is not KRAV. I am glad that you are satisfied with your training, the instructor is highly skilled and very approachable and he does go the extra mile, BUT, I want to learn krav maga, not his version of it.

And I have never bragged about anything, especially teaching, I have so much more to learn. I did mention that i was taught differently though. And as far as me being sick, yes I AM SORRY for that, but I hate missing krav. And the instructor said on his own that I am very well trained. IF he did not believe that then why did I teach a class? And constantly go around helping correct mistakes with Mr. Thomas never saying anything.

Also, about my class card. I have asked for that class card since I started and have not seen it once, because it was never put out. They could not find it when I asked. So, how someone else was able to get a hold of it I have no idea. But yes I did miss a lot of class, I have a rotating job schedule that changes every week, and every 2 months from days to nights.

And as far as this:: "Check your contract, I pay for Combat Systems training and appreciate all I have been taught, especially the "after class" knife and stick training, love that our instructors always goes above and beyond for us."

The instructors do go the extra mile, and THEY ARE ALL GREAT PEOPLE. But, as you said, you pay for COMBAT SYSTEMS TRAINING. Not krav maga. Maybe I am biased, and a bit brash. But all I want to do is learn Krav Maga. Not someones elses system. I once asked a student who has been there over a year, and doesnt he did not know 360 defense? And I could not find but 1 person who knew the correct Krav Maga stick defense.

What he teaches is self defense, he is highly skilled, a great and helpful person, but I want to learn Krav Maga. Not something else......

SO, in closing. I wish you all the best over there. There is no need to further have a forum arguement, I will be driving to Nc to do my training when I can.

[Ron Pennell]

Isn't Jon Rogers the student with the attitude and inappropriate language in class?

Wasn't someone complaining about him after class last night?

If you were qualified to instruct you would be, but many of us complain about you not trying to learn, and consistently suggesting you didn't learn it that way and distracting us from moving forward with our training.

Trying to correct students on the floor when you aren't the instructor is just another sign of disrespect, my 6 year old understands that concept.

Good luck in NC.

[jonrogers44]

Yes, I do curse alot in my training. When I get attacked in the street, I do not want to be shocked by what someone is going to say. And feel intimidated by it, so I am sorry if I offended you.

And I am sorry if you felt I disrespected you in some way, however when an individual CANNOT keep their hands up, cannt rotate their bodies correctly for a kick, i am suppose to just not say anything?

Listen I am not on here to argue, I simply made the observation that IT IS NOT krav maga, which I was told by the instructor he has added other things to it. That is all. If you really want everyone there to join this forum so that I can be attacked in here go ahead, it just shows what type of people you are. I have nothing but praise for the students and staff their. ITS JUST NOT KRAV MAGA, as it was taught to me, as I have seen it in videos, books, and through other practioners.

Have a good day.

[KMMAN]

What came first, the LE program or the civilian program?

[unstpabl1]

Originally Posted by jonrogers44

And I am sorry if you felt I disrespected you in some way, however when an individual CANNOT keep their hands up, cannt rotate their bodies correctly for a kick, i am suppose to just not say anything?
.

Yes, not your problem, its theirs

[GIJoeGIJane]

Wow!! I am very excited to have one of my training buddies point out this
site to me. This is a great tool to utilize. Unfortunately the reason I
came to website initially is because a fellow student was talking after
class about one of our transfer students knocking our instructor. What he
is unaware of it that our loyalty runs deep here in Virginia Beach, and with
Krav World Wide as well. Each training night I leave work in Norfolk and
travel to Virginia Beach to train at what I consider to be the best training
facility in the tidewater area.

One of the things that I will say is that I am no nonsense individual.
So I am going to get straight to the point, Jon quit your moaning and
groaning. You have offended others in class by use of foul language which
was inappropriate for the occasion. You talk about your personal issues and
views in class and frankly some of us just don't want to hear it. You have
taken this forum and presented a twisted version of what the instructor is
teaching to others worldwide.

Any mature responsible person realizes that there is always more to learn,
as a Kravist, we are continually learning new techniques. In all honesty if
the school is still going to allow you to train there, they are showing more
integrity than you. Recommendation is to take what is being taught and
learn.
I want to say that I think that this site is going to be very informative and I am looking forward to more contact with all of you. While on this tangent, can anyone help me with something? I am getting this intense pain shooting through my shoulder when doing blocking drills. We do an awesome warm up and stretching in each class, but I can't get past the
pain and can only give about 60% during the blocking section of training.
Any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[smokelaw1]

Originally Posted by unstpabl1

Yes, not your problem, its theirs

And on that note...once you are working out with someone for a while, and you KNOW that they WANT to hear from you, go ahead (IMHO), and say "keep those hands up" or "watch your footwork." My best partners and I do this FOR each other. When a new guy does it...we get pissed. But if you aren't an instructor, and haven't been ASKED by the instructor to help with such things, then at MOST, you should point out your concerns to the instructor, and not try to teach on your own.


As to the folks who are showing up to defend your school and instructor, I think your loyalty is commendable.
I am curious about your response to (what I see as) the central complaint here. Is a "krav inspired" or ""krav influenced" program being taught, or is it the Official KMWW curriculum?

If the prior, if it is being "sold" as Krav...isn't that a problem? If the latter, and there is something else going on here...well, I can't comment without being there myself.

[MadDogMean]

I think back to all the problems with techniques that I needed to work out when I first started. If another student was correcting me, it would probably add to my frustration. If I'm partnered with someone that I'm comfortable with we usually point out problems with our techniques, otherwise I leave that up to the instructors.

Even 2+ years into KM I'm still working on every technique (even level 1), so there's plenty to focus on. Just a little friendly advice: Where ever you end up training, focus on your own techniques and not those around you, it will only make you a better KM practioner.

[MadDogMean]

BTW, those new to the forum....welcome!

[jonrogers44]

LOL, wow. I wish everyone would stop acting like I am evil bad person here. I have had nothing but good things to say about the character of people that run that place, and I havent attacked anyone. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, IT IS NOT KRAV MAGA AS IT WAS TAUGHT TO ME, OR AS I HAVE WITNESSED ANYWHERE ELSE. I can point out a lot of flaws in the students of that place, but why? If you are happy there great, its just not krav, so dont sell it as krav thats all.

Yes, I SHOULD OF MINDED MY OWN BUSINESS AND NOT POINTED OUT THAT EVERYONE IN THE ROOM WAS DOING SOMETHING INCORRECTLY, I.E. KNOWING HOW TO THROW A HOOK. (After which the instructor also said that the way I was trained to throw it was correct ) i was wrong to point anything out to another person if they did not know me well...that I agree with. So I apologize.

And yes i do curse in my personal life and more so in my training, because I like to make it as real as possible. I like to push, lightly slap their head, make threats doing gun or knife or attack drills because thats what will happen in the street. AND WHEN I WAS INFORMED THAT CURSING WAS NOT ALLOWED I STOPPED RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

And I know I am not perfect, I NEVER said i was, I still practice the basics all the time. I always will, because i want to get better. But I dont want to learn "new techniques" when I have never heard of anyone else teaching them...sorry thats just me.

I also did not twist anything about the instructor or school, if you look through my post I have praised him A LOT, because it is warranted. Because he is a nice person, and good teacher. BUT, its not KMWW so I do not want to learn it.

But overall my lesson has been learned here. IF its not Krav, just keep your mouth shut and dont come back, dont worry about correcting others, let them deal with it.

[jonrogers44]

I am curious about your response to (what I see as) the central complaint here. Is a "krav inspired" or ""krav influenced" program being taught, or is it the Official KMWW curriculum?

If the prior, if it is being "sold" as Krav...isn't that a problem?



THANK YOU.....THATS ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY....

[MadDogMean]

Jon,

You pay money for training, if you feel that you are not receiving the right training, train elsewhere. It sounds like you've already done that. I had some concerns about what was happening in my school a while back. Even thought about dropping out and starting BJJ. After some very good advice from several people on the forum, I decided to stick it out and haven't regretted it.

The people here offer up constructive advice that can make you a better student. Take what you find helpful and use it. A lot of these folks have been doing this a long time.

[jonrogers44]

I am. I just do not agree with whats being taught is all. And I wrongly came on here and vented my frustrations, when I should of kept them to myself. Like I said lesson learned.

[KruJoe]

Jon,

I agree with you. I don't go to McDonalds and order a Whopper. If the school advertises KMW, then KMW techniques should be taught. I've never taken a class from your instructor, but I can tell you the instructor at the Chesapeake/Greenbrier school is certified through KMW and CKM. I just recently finished up the KMW Law Enforcement Instructor class, so we like to bang at Greenbrier.

Correcting Technique. Correcting your partner’s technique is an important aspect of training. If your running around the room correcting everybody, that would get annoying.

Cursing. If a dude is going to stick a gun in your face or a knife at your back, there's going to be cursing. The guy would not say; "Hello sir. I'm robbing you today. Would you mind removing your wallet from your pants and handing it over please." I was robbed at knife point once and I remember the guy saying; "Give me your Mother F@#&*# money, bitch." I don't recall being overly offended by the cursing, but I did shi# my pants by the big A@@ knife he was holding. I gave him my wallet by the way.

Also, I thought you did a good job about being civil and not naming the school. But after being attacked by all the "anonymous" students, screw it.

I gather you’re a local Law Enforcement Officer. I know you local guys don't get paid much and don't have a lot of disposable income. I'm sure you have to pinch and save in order to take a class. It would suck to sign up for a class that you hope could save your life, but not learn proper KMW techniques. It's different if your a soccer mom hoping to get into shape, they don't have to deal with criminals on a daily basis. As a LEO, THIS COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE. After getting certified, I'm a firm believer in the KMW techniques. I don't know if you can transfer over to the Greenbrier school, but like I said, we like to bang. We do have our soccer moms in there, but most of the crew trains hard and the instructor is good.

Good luck, feel free to PM me with any questions you have.

By the way, I don't think I've ever heard a Marine say HOORAH. OORAH, URAH, but not HOORAH. I'm just saying.

Joe

[Jeremy Stafford]

The "H" is usually silent unless the "hoo-rah" is being said in a sarcastic manner. When written, it is not uncommon to see the "H".... I'm just saying also. : )

[Kirsten]

I was told by Darren that when he came back from Israel that the focus was the LE training, out of that began the civilian program. But that was what he told me and both Londale and Jon Pascal reinforced that several times... I have no doubt that at the community center they were also teaching civilians at the same time.

[Kevin Mack]

if you read his bio/historical timeline on this site and Eyals bio. The teaching of KM to LE didnt start till 1987. Secondly he only came back from Israel as a green belt.

[Kevin Mack]

and it was my understanding that it was really the Israeli instructors such as Eyal and Eli Avikzar, and David Ben-Asher who started the LE training in the US but assisted by Darren and Chiropractor Dan.

[Relli Kant]

Who is Chiropractor Dan?

[resqr1]

Personally, I don't care which came first or by who. I'm just glad it's here saving lives every day. Thank you for a great system.

[Jeremy Stafford]

LOL, You really are quite the historian. Chiropractor Dan is Dan Sovetky, A 4th degree who was Darrens right hand through the early years. He's back in the system and teaches for me at Simi. I'll see him tomorrow and ask. As to the green belt thing, what's your point? To be frank, if this thread devolves into a "my master is better than your master" piece of crap, I'll have it locked and deleted. So everybody remember something a better man than me once said, "Think twice, post once".

[Kevin Mack]

The green belt thing was posted not as an insult but to make the point that what he was trained to teach at that point was basic KM civilian self defense. I am talking about the begining. That doesnt mean he he wasnt qualified at a later date.
My instructor came back from the same course with the same rank at the same time so I have no reason to use that as an insult and wouldnt.

[Inky]

I do Kiatsu and touch for health, see if you can find any books on that it will teach you all the pressure points. Also see if there is a holisticall school of medicine near you that teaches acupuncture, I got some therapy here in Oregon for $13 a session.

i hope that helps.
Cheers.

Originally Posted by GIJoeGIJane

Wow!! I am very excited to have one of my training buddies point out this
site to me. This is a great tool to utilize. Unfortunately the reason I
came to website initially is because a fellow student was talking after
class about one of our transfer students knocking our instructor. What he
is unaware of it that our loyalty runs deep here in Virginia Beach, and with
Krav World Wide as well. Each training night I leave work in Norfolk and
travel to Virginia Beach to train at what I consider to be the best training
facility in the tidewater area.

One of the things that I will say is that I am no nonsense individual.
So I am going to get straight to the point, Jon quit your moaning and
groaning. You have offended others in class by use of foul language which
was inappropriate for the occasion. You talk about your personal issues and
views in class and frankly some of us just don't want to hear it. You have
taken this forum and presented a twisted version of what the instructor is
teaching to others worldwide.

Any mature responsible person realizes that there is always more to learn,
as a Kravist, we are continually learning new techniques. In all honesty if
the school is still going to allow you to train there, they are showing more
integrity than you. Recommendation is to take what is being taught and
learn.
I want to say that I think that this site is going to be very informative and I am looking forward to more contact with all of you. While on this tangent, can anyone help me with something? I am getting this intense pain shooting through my shoulder when doing blocking drills. We do an awesome warm up and stretching in each class, but I can't get past the
pain and can only give about 60% during the blocking section of training.
Any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[jjbklb]

Front of shoulder?
Side?
Back of shoulder?

Any specific motion that triggers the pain?

[Psyops]

Kevin Mack,

For those who don't know, is a Kravist through and through. There are few on this forum, or anywhere else, that have as much knowledge and understanding of Krav Maga's history as Kevin does.

It's interesting though that the question being asked by the original poster has yet to be answered. Perhaps the use of foul language is an issue for some that attend the class and maybe even the instructor. I don't mind rough language at my school with the exception being the presence of children. My students tend to follow my lead regarding this, as do the other instructors.

"Krav Inspired" programs are going to happen because the popularity of the system continues to grow. Other styles will adopt some of our techniques as we have adopted techniques from other systems. What is important is that the principles of Krav Maga are followed. The principles are more important than any given technique. So at the end of the day we must only evaluate the principles that are being taught first. Then the validity of the technique must be scrutinized. If the techniques are sound and follow the principles of Krav Maga, who cares which organization wishes to lay claim to have implemented it first?

KMWW, IKMF,IKMA,KMF, KMA, etc....... The Krav Maga alphabet soup is not more important than the system. I do have a problem with certain systems adding Krav Maga to their school with only a level one instructor. They do this to capitalize on the popularity of the system. They never send their instructors to complete phase or continue through expert series etc....

Then they take it upon themselves to make "modifications" to a system that they have spent very little time learning themselves! So if you are an aspiring student, ask your instructor how often they train with higher ranking individuals,ask who those individuals are, better still, ask if you can call those individuals and check for yourself!

I for one don't want to see anymore Tae Kwan Krav schools, Jeet Kun Krav, Kravaikido and any other mix that does not follow the very clearly stated principles of Krav Maga

[JL]

D,

Very well put. I agree whole heartedly. Krav Maga has a set of tenants. It needs no pre-fixes or suffixes. (aikidokrav,jeet kunkrav,etc.) The instructor should have a high level working knowledge of the techniques for sure, but also have a vast working knowledge of the tenants of which Krav Maga was built.

As an aside, Donavin... I will be in LV in early March and look forward to coming and working out with you and seeing your new center. I hope all of the people here have a safe and Happy Holiday!! JL

[Kirsten]

I thought I did answer his question... In my first post, email corp but don't expect them to fly in and save the day. They don't micromanage schools.

[mdfiasco]

Deadthread revival..

Kirsten did answer his question; email corporate. Isn't it a shame though that KM has a corporate office at all?

This seems to be the only school teaching KM in Hampton Roads, and it looks like a McDojo to me, CST KM and alphabet soup.

Sales before results.

[TacticalTimmy]

Which school are you referring to in Hampton Roads?

[mdfiasco]

Originally Posted by TacticalTimmy

Which school are you referring to in Hampton Roads?

ATA on Princess Anne...it seems that Dynamic Combatives and Commando Krav melded into ATA...

EDIT: I have no idea what school the OP was talking about.

[TacticalTimmy]

I haven't been to the Princess Anne version, I went to the Greenbriar studio for a little while. It WAS better than nothing, but things just weren't feeling right. So I left, and while I miss training, I don't miss it enough to go back there. Very geared towards bringing a profit to the school only. I've got it that schools are there to make a profit, but I didn't have that problem or feeling when I trained at Hybrid.

[mdfiasco]

Basically the only KM we have in Hampton Roads is ATA. They alienated me through one phone call to their office.

I can only imagine that the OP, while it seems like he was a little over excited in training, was probably right about his concerns.

[KMyoshi]

Originally Posted by mdfiasco

Deadthread revival..

Kirsten did answer his question; email corporate. Isn't it a shame though that KM has a corporate office at all?

This seems to be the only school teaching KM in Hampton Roads, and it looks like a McDojo to me, CST KM and alphabet soup.

Sales before results.

If by "corporate office" you mean the headquarters of KMW (which itself is a training center) than yes. I believe every organization (company, etc.) needs to have a place to call home base.

[Bill KM-VB]

Hey People. I understand your concerns..."McDojo" sends one or two instructors to KMW Level 1, places the licensee sticker on the window, and offers Krav Maga. The instructors never continue their education or level advancement. I got sucked into the ATA contract void back in 2000. After two months worth of training I relaized the instructor had no more KM knowledge to offer. I just returned to Va Beach after 5 yrs contracting in Iraq and am now going to start offering KM classes at a local Karate school. As a former local PD member, I attended the majority of the KMW Force Training Division's LE Instructor Courses in 2004. While in Iraq, I went to Israel several times to complete my civilian instructor certification and am now a fully certified Krav Maga Global Instructor under Eyal. We have a few intro classes scheduled for February with regular classes starting in March. Check us out. www.kravmaga-vb.com