Go Back   Krav Maga Worldwide™ Israeli Self Defense Forums > Krav Maga Worldwide Forums > General KM Related Topics

Notices

General KM Related Topics Post general comments or questions about Krav Maga here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-26-2012, 02:07 AM   #1
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default My first class and have some basic questions

This is my first post here so hi to everybody to begin with.

I attended my first Krav class (KMG) last night and would like to share my opinions and questions on it. Like most people I guess I was a bit apprehensive going in and I was wondering would it be a bruising encounter. It started with some warm up techniques followed by some blocking of punches and kicks which was then followed by the blocking of some knife stabbing movements. Even though the fake knife blocking techniques were new to me the punch\kick blocks etc weren’t too different to what I did in karate all those years ago when I reached 2nd brown in my teens.

One of the main reasons I started KM was because I was really interested in the use of pressure points like the twisting of wrists\arms a certain way to force the attacker quickly to his knees and into submission. This maybe from seeing this type of stuff from Aikido in the movies which made me think these submission techniques might be good to know. This is what then led me to discover KM even though I think I am a bit late to the party J

Obviously you should walk before you run but I was wondering will this grappling\twisting be thought soon or is this for later belts\grades?

In my opinion if I am in a pub and some guy comes at me I think using these techniques rather than kicking him in the nuts\punching him in the throat may be of more use to me but that’s because that is more the environment I think I am usually most at risk.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my views above?

Thanks a lot
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 07:51 AM   #2
Shipwreck
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

I might be 100% wrong on this (and I am sure I will be corrected) but from what I have been taught and told, the techniques for disarming opponents should only be used as a last resort.

First and foremost you should always try and talk the situation out and try and get away as quickly as possible. Now if that doesn't work and the guy is hell bent on getting your wallet or he really wants to hurt you, these techniques work because it's the shortest distance to disarm the attacker. Your hands are already up at the correct level to perform the disarm vice having to attempt a kick to the groin or punch to the throat. Either of those can be seen quickly and in that split second of you doing that you can get stabbed, esp with the kick to the groin, if he has the knife to your throat and you kick him, where does that knife go? Down and that can still cut you bad.

Now this isn't to say that you won't get cut using the disarm techniques as well, but getting cut on the hand vice getting your throat slit or stabbed in the gut is a much better scenario in my opinion. It may seem a little wonky and out of place now but the main idea of it is to get the weapon away from your body quickly and with minimal force. You must build it into your muscle memory because when crap hits the fan and you are in a real life or death situation, form and technique mean nothing and IQ goes out the window. You will end up repeating this training over and over and over to the point where you wont even have to think about it.

I hope I answered this correctly and if not, I know some of the more advanced on here will.

-Shipwreck
Shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 08:10 AM   #3
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Hi Shipwreck and thanks for the reply. I think what you were saying is correct and good advice.

From the training you had, at what point did you start to get trained in the more restraint and arm\wrist lock movements out of curiosity as that stuff is what I am keen to practice where you use the bodies resistance points against an attacker?

Thanks
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 08:31 AM   #4
Shipwreck
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

From my understanding (as to what my instructors have told us) they really focus on the advanced knife defenses in the later levels. Level 1 (white belt) I feel is just getting the bare bones down without having to over complicate things. I just started about 4 months ago and am about to take my 'yellow' belt exam in a few weeks, but our instructors have taught us a few things (nothing too complex) just to kind of mix up the classes a bit. It can get rather tedious doing 360 blocks and groin kick to hammer fist for an hour.

Just hang in there and the good stuff will come. I like coming in early and watching the advanced classes go at it. They do all the fun 'gun to the back of your head' kind of techniques.
Shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 08:41 AM   #5
oglenewinkel
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Hello Celtic

I got a little confused by your post so I will give you my 2 cents on both topics.

As shipwreck stated you should do everything you can to escape the confrontation if at all possible in all situations (use the Nike defense)

If you can't not escape and your attacker is dead set on causing you harm do not disappoint him by using joint manipulation or pressure points. Hit him hard, hit him fast and when his aggression stops you should escape the situation and notify law enforcement about the encounter.

If you’re confronted by an individual with a knife, you are in a deadly force situation. Once again you should do everything you can to escape the confrontation if at all possible If escape is not an option and your forced to defend yourself you would use the principle of RCAT, Redirect the attack, Control the weapon, Attack the aggressor and Take the weapon away. Once you have the weapon you need to get escape the situation and notify law enforcement about the encounter.
You should start learning these principles in level 2. Just remember joint manipulation and pressure points are what most law enforcement considers soft techniques. Those are for dealing with passive resistant individuals not for dealing with someone who is trying to attack you.


I hope this helps.



Good luck, and keep training.
oglenewinkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 08:57 AM   #6
Shipwreck
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

My apologies, I meant Level 0 (white belt)
Shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 09:06 AM   #7
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Thanks guys for the replies and its good to hear that in the near future we will be doing more than "360 blocks and groin kick to hammer fist for an hour." as Shipwreck says.

I think the joint manipulation as you called it oglenewinkel is of real interest to me especially when doing it after a non-knife attack like after attempted punches.

I say this as to be honest even if I havent got in a fight for years that the most likely scenario I think a fight may happen with me is if some guy maybe starts to push me in a pub\club for some reason or putting his head up to mine in a threatening way etc. The usual stupid beginnings of a fight which I try to walk away from.

Therefore for me rather than hitting him in the throat and escalating the situation with him I feel that if I could grab a wrist or shoulder and twist it in a certain way to immobilise him on his knees or something would be very useful. Learning these techniques in KM is when KM will be of real benefit to me.

Im not asking if this is the right thing to do according to KM but just in my head it is something I would like to have the ability to do.

Hope you see what kind of techniques are of interest to me and my question was based around when did you guys think I will be doing more of this type of joint manipulation (without knives) which you have gone some way of answering.

Thanks

Last edited by CelticKM; 04-26-2012 at 09:16 AM.
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 09:12 AM   #8
Shipwreck
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

I understand and can respect your want to diffuse the situation without resorting to a nut shot, but depending on where you live, you have to be mindful of the laws there too. Just because a guy is up in your face doesn't mean you should give him a wrist lock and take him to the ground. A lot of places, especially now a days, that would be considered assault and you would be the bad guy.

Now if he swings at you, you block hit him in the nuts and punch him once for the situation to be over, it was self defense. It's a fine line to walk unfortunately but that's one of the great things IMO about KM. It's not an attacking style, it's a defending WHILE attacking style so, in theory, you should never be at fault.
Shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 09:32 AM   #9
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Really interesting Shipwreck and it's good to hear another point of view on these potential scenarios.

I suppose these are very situational questions and you\I would have to make a call at the time as to the amount of force required. Like you mentioned above in regards to me potentially becoming the bad guy after a wrist lock it’s also a fine line and a person could be in trouble if you go from 0-100 with multiple hits on an attacker too I guess.

Goes to show that analysing the situation is very important in determining any potential threat.

And your plan of attack may need to be decided in the blink of an eye…
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 09:38 AM   #10
stuartf
 
stuartf's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

To directly answer your question about when you'll be taught wrist locks, or "cavaliers" in the KM vernacular. The curriculum is different from org to org, in KMWW they're taught to level 4 (green belt) students, which would be roughly equivalent to a P5 as far as time commitment in KMG. I haven't been able to find a listing of what KMG teaches at each level though, just a break out of "Units" like kicks and throws.

Last edited by stuartf; 04-26-2012 at 09:38 AM. Reason: grammar
stuartf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 09:47 AM   #11
BradM
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

I'm not sure depending on joint manipulation and pressure points are a good idea for self defense against an agressinve attack. Joint manipulation and pressure points mostly (I believe) use fine motor skills. When you are attacked, surprised, adreniline rushed and scared, possibly fighting for you life - those fine motor skills will most lilkely go out the window. I trained in Krav Maga (KMWW) for about 4 years and in CKM for about the same and in most all training senerios we used techniques utilizing gross motor skills - kicks to the groin, legs, abdoman - knee strikes, punches, elbows etc. Try using fine motor skills in a training senerio where you are being repeatidly attacked by multiple attackers for a few minutes and I believe you'll find you won't have time to even think about pressure points or joints, much less being able to apply them. I agree they may be useful to restrain and hold an attacker until authorities or help arrives - after you have taken the fight out of him with a gold kick to the groin or hard punch to the throat.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
__________________
I love this stuff!
Brad
BradM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 10:08 AM   #12
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Thanks Stuart for the exact times and Brad for the other information.

I have never heard of the terms fine\gross motor which was interesting to read about and I agree that in the heat of the moment the fine motor skills would be a lot more difficult to harness than the others.

I suppose I may be a victim of Internet simplification as a lot of the fight sequences of KM I have seen online had a fair amount of arm/wrist manipulation after the initial punches and kicks to the groin in the defence. Probably a lot harder in reality to act these out.
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 03:14 PM   #13
bear34
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

I'm guessing Eyal's curriculum will be quite close to the IKMF curriculum since he put most of IKMF's together. Most of the cavaliers are taught at the Graduate level. I agree with Brad....not great for self defense. Consider buying David Kahns DVD set as he spends a lot of time with takedowns, etc.
bear34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 04:32 PM   #14
Don
Force
Instructor
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

What Brad said +1. IME, you're going to have to be THAT much better than someone else in order to pull off softer/friendlier techniques against someone who's trying to knock/rip your block off. Can it be done - sure. Would I use them - maybe on a drunk guy who is just being stupid/not listening...
Don is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 06:18 PM   #15
MDeaneUSCG
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don View Post
What Brad said +1. IME, you're going to have to be THAT much better than someone else in order to pull off softer/friendlier techniques against someone who's trying to knock/rip your block off. Can it be done - sure. Would I use them - maybe on a drunk guy who is just being stupid/not listening...
+1

You have to realize, the situation you describe is very limited. A drunk guy in a pub getting mouthy and puffing his chest at you is one thing. Sure, he throws a sloppy punch that maybe you can catch and turn into an arm bar takedown to end the situation.
Now let's complicate it...
Same guy throws his punch, you do your cool takedown, but now his 3 big friends come to back him up. This is where friendly 'respectful' techniques need to go out the window. If you try wristlocks and takedowns, you are gonna get overwhelmed and likely very hurt.
Now let's make it even worse...
You are fighting these 4 guys now, and one of them says 'screw this' and pulls out his folding knife. So now you are dealing with 3 unarmed attackers, and one guy with a knife. Are you going to try and use a cool wrist lock on the knife guy while avoiding getting beaten to a pulp by the other 3?

In a self defense situation, once use of force has been decided, it must be 100%, quick, and intense. To believe that any less will suffice is to live in a fantasy. Your attacker has already dedicated himself to hurting/killing you, and you must be willing to do the same to survive the encounter.
MDeaneUSCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 06:53 PM   #16
Don
Force
Instructor
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

@ MDeane - I agree. I guess I didn't do a very good job of it but I was trying to say that For Me, "video friendly" techniques such as pressure points, pain compliance type techniques, joint manipulations (where I'm Not immediately tearing or breaking), etc are valid tools/options but only have limited applicability or smaller windows of opportunity. Some other instances besides dumb resistive drunks off the top of my head, very young or old subjects/suspects, handcuffed persons, team takedowns, passive protesters, etc...
Don is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 07:11 PM   #17
CJs Dad
Administrator
 
CJs Dad's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Thats why we call it a tool box, when its time to do demo work sometimes you just need a sledge hammer.
__________________
I believe that self-defense is a moral imperative, and that illegitimate force and illegal violence must be met with righteous indignation and superior violence.

But hey, thats just me.
CJs Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 07:36 PM   #18
MDeaneUSCG
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don View Post
@ MDeane - I agree. I guess I didn't do a very good job of it but I was trying to say that For Me, "video friendly" techniques such as pressure points, pain compliance type techniques, joint manipulations (where I'm Not immediately tearing or breaking), etc are valid tools/options but only have limited applicability or smaller windows of opportunity. Some other instances besides dumb resistive drunks off the top of my head, very young or old subjects/suspects, handcuffed persons, team takedowns, passive protesters, etc...
I wasn't trying to say your post wasn't informative, if it came across that way. It just seemed like the OP thinks that pressure points and joint manipulations are all he'll need to learn to be a registered BAMF, and as we've all said, that isn't the case.

Also, yeah, it becomes difficult to explain why you and your partner just beat the hell out of 9 year old Timmy and his 90 year old great granny at a treehugger convention after handcuffing them. I guess that's where the pressure points and 'soft' techniques come in.
MDeaneUSCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 07:48 PM   #19
Shipwreck
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Forget soft techniques. The assailant isn't going to be using them on you, why should they be afforded the luxury of you using it on them?

Get in, get out, stay alive!

-Shipwreck
Shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 01:22 AM   #20
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Wow, I didnt expect so many further responses when I checked this morning but I guess the U.S are a few hours behind me on the other side of the pond. It’s great also to see such an active KM message board as I struggled to find many.

Anyhow, thanks for the really interesting responses and I already have David Khans DVD set on my radar and it was good to know that cavaliers are more prevalent at graduate level (thanks bear34).

It seems to be the general conclusion as per MDEANUSCG’s post that the approach should be “when force has been decided, it must be 100%, quick, and intense” so I will keep that in mind and will follow Don’s approach for more “very young or old subjects/suspects, handcuffed persons, team takedowns, passive protesters, etc...“

As I thought previously and what the previous posts seem to agree with is that it’s very much situational as to what the correct response should be so quick analysis will be very important I guess.

I will put the BAMF comment down to misinterpretation over the internet as if anything I think my restraint questions make me less of a BAMF then if I was suggesting kicking\punching in the nuts.

I will probably be back to pester you with more questions as my training progresses…

Thanks everyone for the input
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 03:13 AM   #21
TacticalTimmy
 
TacticalTimmy's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Go for the nuts and end the fight early before he has time to bring other weapons or friends to bear on you. There is no need, nor is it "honorable", to stay and fight everybody who wants to involve themselves. If you can't get away from the fight, get the fight over and then get away. The goals are to avoid conflict, avoid escalating conflict, survive conflict and escape from conflict. You don't even need to necessarily incapacitate your assailant to survive and escape; knocking him down could present you with the opportunity to run that you've been looking for. If they didn't see what car you arrived in and they're right behind you, just keep running and call the cops; come back for your car with them.
TacticalTimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 12:31 PM   #22
MDeaneUSCG
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Couldn't put it better myself TacticalTimmy. Sometimes using what may be considered a more aggressive response to an assault is the best solution to keep all parties safer.
For example, as a LEO, my use of force continuum places our pepper spray at level 4, along with general combatives, and places pressure points and joint manipulation at level 3. I have to consider what is going to be the most effective way to control the situation. If I believe that by trying to use a joint manipulation or pressure point, the subject could get combative and force me to up the level of force, then I may opt to jump up a level to OC spray, which I can employ at a distance. By doing that, I may have just prevented a drawn out hands on fight that could cause me to use my baton, or possibly even use deadly force if it got that bad. So the subject comes out of it with 45 minutes of pain and suffering, but no broken bones, and I go home.

In short, sometimes a higher level of force can actually prevent the need to use even more force.
MDeaneUSCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 03:21 PM   #23
Don
Force
Instructor
Force Training Division
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Celtic, don't forget that very young or old subjects/suspects, handcuffed persons, people being taken down by a group of LEOs, etal can still be highly assaultive and/or lethal threats. Even a passive or cooperative person can suddenly and without warning change into an "evil jack in the box". Don't underestimate an opponent due to physical appearances or characteristics (young, old, male, female, big, little, skinny, fat, tattoos, clean shaven, nice clothes, well-spoken, ebonic, wheelchair, prosthetics, ETC).

For us in LE, here is a corollary to what MDeane's last sentence above - Hesitation to use force and/or using too little force can get you and your partners seriously hurt or killed.
Don is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 03:41 PM   #24
CelticKM
 
CelticKM's Avatar
 
Default Re: My first class and have some basic questions

Thanks for the tips Don and others
CelticKM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:21 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2007 - 2012, Krav Maga Worldwide™

Style Provided By: MonksDiner