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Old 04-20-2012, 09:31 PM   #1
KevinMack
 
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Default Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

This is a little rougher video than the other ones I have shot. This was shot to explain some questions my students had on the subject but how camera wasn't working so I had to shoot on a phone. So I apologize for no close up shots. It was also unplanned so the cameragirl didn't quite know what angle to shoot from. I might re-shoot it at a later date. There are a lot more details I want to add as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgsOmWw3pPk
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

Nice video Kevin. Similar, but not exactly like it's taught in IKMF. I find the differences between organizations facinating. Are you still with the IKMA?
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

How is it different? If you type in IKMF stick defense the videos you see show the same thing. I have trained with Eyal,Gabi and Avi and watched many iof their videos and I havent seen any real difference. Its also the same defence as in Imi's book "How to defend Against an Armed Assault"
Not being a dick..I am just honestly curious.

I was never really with IKMA. Though I did train at Davey's school for awhile and my instructor still teaches there part time.
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:56 AM   #4
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On the first defense the differences from how I was taught are:

After the initial defense of punch and redirection of the stick the left hand follows the attackers arm down to the wrist as the right hand hooks the neck. The wrist is secured with a straight left arm while a knee or kick is thrown. Then the body is turned to the inside and the right hand is reached under to grab the stick. This breaks the stick against the thumb which makes it easier for the disarm.

My statement was made less about the actual technique and more about the slight differences in philosophy that I see. For instance(and these are only my perceptions) I see a blurred line in techniques taught to students of IKMA where there are distinct separations in techniques in the IKMF between civilian, LE, etc. I also see a difference in philosophy in that IKMF wants you to get away while KMWW seems to want to make it a fight.

Again, the whole statement was meant as a compliment. You look to be an excellent instructor.
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Old 04-22-2012, 10:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

No worries..I wasnt insulted. I was just interested as after you said that I tried to notice a difference. For the record...I actually glossed over showing any disarms in that video as I had limited time and I was really trying to answer the questions of some students who asked why you would use one defense over the other. The disarms were one of the details I mentioned that I would be adding in a reshot. I teach a couple of disarms to my students as options based on how you end up. I am kind of against showing one exact way to control the opponent and disarm them as there are a variety of ways you will end up.
As much as I like the IKMF I respectfully disagree with the stun and run way they teach their students. In fact I think if could be dangerous. The main reason being....where you going to run to? If a woman is walking to her car in a dark parking lot and is attacked and she uses a basic KM defense and hits the guy once or twice but does not totally incapacitate him and starts to run away.....whats to stop the guy from chasing after her and grabbing her again and now she has angered him and lost the element of surprise. In a home invasion you are attacked in bed...you fight back with two or three attacks...where are you going to? Downstairs to be attacked again by a guy who is not knocked out?
A stun and run or get out of there mentality is fine when you have some place close to escape to where you can be safe or to get help. But the fact of reality is that we tend to be attacked when we are vulnerable....alone...and where help is hard to find. Only you can help you and you are not out of danger till the threat has been removed and that is when the attacker has been knocked down and unable to get up to continue attacking you.
The sad fact is that in a city like Philadelphia you could be attacked on a dark street at night..escape from your attacker and run down the street screaming for help and knocking on doors and there is a very good chance that no one will open there doors to help you. In fact there are many cases of women being beaten by their boyfriends in public and no one steps in. there was a news video of an old woman walking around Philly running errands with a knife lodged in the back of her head(she had no idea she was stabbed) and not one single person said anything to her at any of the places she went to.
This is the reality of the world we live in. It goes back as far as the Kitty Genovese case. The IKMF approach may work in smaller European cities with less violence and weapons as well as countries with a more cooperative approach to helping their neighbors....but not here.

Last edited by KevinMack; 04-22-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

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Originally Posted by KevinMack View Post
This is the reality of the world we live in. It goes back as far as the Kitty Genovese case. The IKMF approach may work in smaller European cities with less violence and weapons as well as countries with a more cooperative approach to helping their neighbors....but not here.
Agreed! I'd also like to add that in this state of constant litigation people are less apt to assist someone due to potential liability and repercussions of their actions.


I gave CPR to a child in the park who had fallen struck their head and stopped breathing, I had to get an attorney.


Sad but true.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:24 PM   #7
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IKMF's stuff seems to work well enough in Israel. Well, there you go......differences in philosophy.
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

and thats my point exactly. I hate writing on my iPad so I will just write these in a series of points.

- First..despite the fear od violence from terrorism israel is a relatively safe country to live in. Violent crime is rather low. Compare the violent crime rate of that entire country to the city of Philadelphia which has over 200 murders a year. Philly is connected by bridge to Camden,NJ which has the 2nd highest crime rate in the US. This doesnt include the surrounding towns. The violent crime rate of just this city far exceeds the crime rate of their entire nation.

- Israelis have a totally different idea of civic responsibility than Americans. For instance an Israeli told me that its is the responsibilty of a citizen to offer a ride to a soldier if they see him walking. It is a shame not to. Israelis welcome strangers into their homes on a regular basis. It is part of their culture.

- This also applies to their approach to self defense and counter terrorism. Citizens are taught and expected to swarm and try to retrains a terrrorist in the case of a suicide bomber or attacker whether they are law enforcement or not. It is the idea of losing one or two lives to save hundreds. They also teach this to kids in Israel in active shooter scenarios. You can not get away with this approach in the US for liability reasons and due to our philosophies. No school will allow you to come in and teach their kids to try and attack a terrorist in their school. Yet what saved the lives of many students at Virginia Tech?

- Even the IKMF approach to LE is different there than here. Gabi Noah came to my school and we did some training with cars. He was showing some things to a LE student of mine that involved Israeli LE tactics. He showed that in Israeli during a traffic stop of a suspect one officer approaches the drivers side window while one stands directly in front of the car with his gun drawn. When my students asked why he stood in front as he saw it as a dangerous place to be...he asked "what if if the driver starts to drive forward or tries to run the officer down"...Gabi said we just shoot him. The car moves we shoot. My student was like we can not do that in the US at least in our department.

So while the techniques work in Israel their mindset and cultural responsibilities are very different than Americans in all aspects of live and even self defense.
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

but enough of my ranting...anyone have any suggestions for future video topics?
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #10
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How 'bout a prison type, rapid, multiple stab to the gut, underhand.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

a how to or a defense ?

:)

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How 'bout a prison type, rapid, multiple stab to the gut, underhand.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:03 AM   #12
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a how to or a defense ?

:)
Touche' . Stay thirsty my friend!
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

I thought the video, was very good, however, as it pertains to overhead stick defense, Kevin explains that you go dead side if you react late, I've always been taught that you make up your mind and go live side or dead side regardless of timing.

Haim Gidon told me a couple of years ago that they now only go dead side when attacked overhand at an angle and you can't square up to go inside. Other than that, the default defense is bursting inside.

Nir Maman teaches the defense a little different in that both hands shoot thru, and your counter is the rear knee and the forearm attacking the throat/neck/jaw.

I happen to like that one more, I've always felt that punching someone in the face as you perform the defense will make the attacker go backwards quicker than you may expect, in which case, you may not be able to control the stick; in the event you didn't knock him out, you now have to deal with a guy who still has a stick. Of course you follow up with more attacks, but I like the counter with a knee first.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Interesting differences.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:53 AM   #14
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

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Originally Posted by Coda Vex View Post
How 'bout a prison type, rapid, multiple stab to the gut, underhand.
I second this request - how to defend that is.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:46 PM   #15
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How 'bout a prison type, rapid, multiple stab to the gut, underhand.
+1. I'd like to see that too, Kevin!

The way Nir Maman shows it, you have to address a couple of problems in the defense. First, it's at such close range that you can't really see the knife hand moving. Second, he's probably going to try to grab you with his off hand while he's doing it.

Assuming he's got the knife in his right hand and is grabbing with his left, you trap his left with your right and grab his right shoulder with your left (Kevin's handles) so you can feel him start the thrust even though you can't see it. As he thrusts, you leave your left hand on his shoulder, drop your left elbow and twist your body to deflect the knife arm inside with your elbow and forearm. Then you slide your left hand down to control the knife wrist and go to work with the usual strikes, disarm, etc.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

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The way Nir Maman shows it, you have to address a couple of problems in the defense. First, it's at such close range that you can't really see the knife hand moving. Second, he's probably going to try to grab you with his off hand while he's doing it.

Assuming he's got the knife in his right hand and is grabbing with his left, you trap his left with your right and grab his right shoulder with your left (Kevin's handles) so you can feel him start the thrust even though you can't see it. As he thrusts, you leave your left hand on his shoulder, drop your left elbow and twist your body to deflect the knife arm inside with your elbow and forearm. Then you slide your left hand down to control the knife wrist and go to work with the usual strikes, disarm, etc.
Is there a video for that? I'm having a hard time visualizing that series of movements being effective.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:14 PM   #17
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Is there a video for that? I'm having a hard time visualizing that series of movements being effective.
It's on the Israeli Connection DVDs. I probably didn't explain it very well. The way he shows it, the move torques/traps the BG's arm inside for a moment, between your forearm and his body, where he'll have a hard time reaching your body with the knife. Of course, nothing is easy with a knife at grappling range.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

Oops, I had it wrong. After the deflection with the left, he traps the knife arm with the right. I tried to post some pics but no joy. I guess y'all will just have to buy/rent the DVD.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

I thought it over and I dont think what I would teach on that subject would translate well in video format. In KM we have a defense for an underhand stab from close range and two from a farther range. Both tend to be slightly inadequate in regards to the aggressive prison style attack and forward pressure. Though I dont think that type of attack is totally undefendable(sp?).I do think it is very hard to defend properly especially if it is done the way prison style attacks are done.
If I shot a video on the subject ...the defense I show may not match up to an official KM defense and would probably be something I would do based on my experience as a KM black belt who has been training for 12 years in the system and my previous MA background. The video would also probably be more talking and less technique oriented in order to explain some concepts that would help you survive such an attack.
I would have no problem teaching this to someone in person but I dont think I could fully explain it on video in a way that would be proud to share with you.
Sorry.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:49 AM   #20
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

also...if you have the KM Alliance app for iPad there is a video shown where they do a defense for this type of attack. I am not sure how I feel about their approach to the problem and the whole time I was watching it a solution kept popping in to my mind. I keep meaning to experiment with it and try it out but I keep forgetting. Maybe tonight I will play around with it.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:04 AM   #21
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinMack View Post
and thats my point exactly. I hate writing on my iPad so I will just write these in a series of points.

- First..despite the fear od violence from terrorism israel is a relatively safe country to live in. Violent crime is rather low. Compare the violent crime rate of that entire country to the city of Philadelphia which has over 200 murders a year. Philly is connected by bridge to Camden,NJ which has the 2nd highest crime rate in the US. This doesnt include the surrounding towns. The violent crime rate of just this city far exceeds the crime rate of their entire nation.

- Israelis have a totally different idea of civic responsibility than Americans. For instance an Israeli told me that its is the responsibilty of a citizen to offer a ride to a soldier if they see him walking. It is a shame not to. Israelis welcome strangers into their homes on a regular basis. It is part of their culture.

- This also applies to their approach to self defense and counter terrorism. Citizens are taught and expected to swarm and try to retrains a terrrorist in the case of a suicide bomber or attacker whether they are law enforcement or not. It is the idea of losing one or two lives to save hundreds. They also teach this to kids in Israel in active shooter scenarios. You can not get away with this approach in the US for liability reasons and due to our philosophies. No school will allow you to come in and teach their kids to try and attack a terrorist in their school. Yet what saved the lives of many students at Virginia Tech?

- Even the IKMF approach to LE is different there than here. Gabi Noah came to my school and we did some training with cars. He was showing some things to a LE student of mine that involved Israeli LE tactics. He showed that in Israeli during a traffic stop of a suspect one officer approaches the drivers side window while one stands directly in front of the car with his gun drawn. When my students asked why he stood in front as he saw it as a dangerous place to be...he asked "what if if the driver starts to drive forward or tries to run the officer down"...Gabi said we just shoot him. The car moves we shoot. My student was like we can not do that in the US at least in our department.

So while the techniques work in Israel their mindset and cultural responsibilities are very different than Americans in all aspects of live and even self defense.
I agree, Israel is other culture, culture of violence, you must remember Imi went to Israel 1940 to training militarys that fight against Palestinians, so they are accustomed to violence and they must survive, all women goes to the army, every police or military train Kav Magá, so they must be hard but is not a nice country to live, peace is very weak there, I think will never be peace in middle orient,unfortunately !!!!
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:13 AM   #22
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Okay, here are the Nir pics. If the links don't work try to copy/paste them into a fresh browser tab. They don't really do him justice -- he spends a whole DVD chapter talking about and showing close-range knife defense.

http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir1.jpg
http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir2.jpg
http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir3.jpg
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:20 AM   #23
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I should probably clarify that Nir has separate chapters for long range, medium range and close range knife defenses. Those pics are for close range where the guy has a hand on you before you realize he has a knife.

For medium range, where he's close enough to cut you but you can see the knife coming, he goes straight for grabbing the knife wrist with both hands. How you grab and what you do next depend on the angle of the knife attack.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

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Originally Posted by catapult View Post
Okay, here are the Nir pics. If the links don't work try to copy/paste them into a fresh browser tab. They don't really do him justice -- he spends a whole DVD chapter talking about and showing close-range knife defense.

http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir1.jpg
http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir2.jpg
http://www.crestviewcable.com/~catapult/Nir3.jpg
Ok, I can kinda see what you're talking about, thanks for linking those. I've played around with a few "grab and stab" types of positions before, both as the attacker and defender. IME, you gotta get free of the grab ASAP. Once a knife guy has one side "isolated" (e.g. in pics 1 and 2 where the attacker's left hand and Nir's right hand are pretty much stuck together and now it's the attacker's knife hand vs Nir's left hand) it gets Very Bad Very Quickly for the defender - there are just too many targets, openings, angles available for the knife guy at that range (and in the pictures, it doesn't look like his computer is being reset at all). You may or may not be able to grab near the shoulder (what if the BG isn't wearing a shirt or his shirt rips?) and if you do, the knife guy knows exactly where your arm is and can target tendons/ligaments or even the brachial artery. If the knife guy isn't targeting the defender's arm, it's relatively easy to circle the knife under the elbow and around the arm on both inside and outside. Also depending on what kind of trap you have on the knife guy's non-knife hand, you also run the risk of him getting that hand free and back into action. If that non-knife hand gets free and the knife guy knows what to do with it, it gets exponentially worse for the defender at that range (the non-knife hand is what is going to kill you - it's what will be used to trap or otherwise take away your ability to stop the knife hand from scoring)...
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:37 AM   #25
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Hey Don,

I don't think the defense depends on grabbing his shirt. It's just a convenient way to keep your hand on his shoulder so you can feel what he's doing.

There's a lot more to it. If he doesn't strike right away, you start kicking him to distract him and maybe make your escape. If he tries to get you in a head lock, you pluck his elbow down into your chest. That turns him so you can get hold of his head and snap his neck or bulldog him to the ground. Etc., etc.

Last edited by catapult; 05-10-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:39 PM   #26
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

For his technique, it seems as though an "anchor" (e.g. gripping the shirt) would be beneficial. If the hand isn't gripping and is merely resting or pushing, it wouldn't take much for the knife guy to circumvent. For example, if I were the knife guy in the pictures and the defender was simply "feeling" me with his left hand on my right shoulder, I would probably just disengage* his arm and then cut the left side of his neck. (* picture my right hand with the knife coming up inside his arm, executing a tan sao type of motion against the inside of his arm, and then following that open line straight in - my right hand brings the knife up, point up, on the inside of his arm, then my hand tilts slightly outward not quite turning full palm up, point angled out to my right, my wrist/forearm pushes outwards against the inside of his left wrist/forearm moving his hand off my shoulder and creating a little more space in between our bodies, then the knife immediately slashes towards his throat. If for some reason he manages to bring his arm back inside and push against my arm, pushing inwards towards my left arm, then I simply go with the push, rotate under and around the outside, and then over his shoulder and cut his neck again. Imagine something kinda like doing single sided wing chun chi sao with one guy holding a knife... And that's assuming I'm not targeting something on his left arm first)

Yes, if the BG doesn't strike immediately - e.g. he's trying to scare you or threaten you and maybe just wants your money or keys or something, you definitely have more opportunity to try something or a few somethings. For me, I'm more concerned with an immediate attack or, having already been attacked, follow up attacks. For most of us who have trained in FMA, the philosophy is that a knife is meant to be felt, not seen. If I show you a blade, it's usually because I'm looking to draw out a particular reaction or movement - i.e. I want you to see it.

IME, you gotta do your best not to get grabbed, get free if you do, and you gotta gotta gotta get your combatives in ASAP! Any kind of blocking or trapping is only a temporary measure. You have to scramble his brain otherwise he has the time and opportunity to continue his attack(s) or modifying his attack(s) to counter your defense.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

Thanks, Don. It's nice to hear from someone who knows a helluva lot more about knife fighting than I do.

I guess, if he doesn't have a shirt, you could always do the jaws of life on his trapezius muscle. That might distract him with some pain as well as giving you a nice anchor.

My thinking is the defense might work more often than not because the average street punk isn't an FMA master and is probably already committed to the belly stab by the time you get your hand on his shoulder. A variation is to raise your elbow if he tries to go outside and over.

Give it a try sometime and tell us what you think!
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

I talk a decent game. I would never claim to be a definitive resource... lol

Even on a less sophisticated grab and stab attack, you are likely to face repeated stab/slash attempts along multiple lines within that 180 or so degree arc (for right handed knife, 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock down to 6 o'clock. As you can imagine, the more stab/slash attempts the BG is allowed to make (the longer you both stay at that range and you're only blocking or otherwise trying to tie up or slow down the weapon hand), the better his chances of scoring one or more times.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: Overhead Stick Defense Explained.

I think this is actually a pretty good demo by Tim (who used to post here) some over hand strikes but the second series you can see the difficulty in repeated underhad strikes, and like Don said, from different angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufjd-_36Un8
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