Why don't all KM schools train all out?

[PinkGloves]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

luckily I am pretty tough and it was a girl hitting me not a guy.

Do not be so quick to discredit the ladies.

One of your previous posts mentioned something about training with grandmothers not being beneficial for you. We have a 60 year old woman who trains with us. She is more aggressive and will push harder than many of the men who train there as well. She is currently training level four but continues to participate in the level one classes as well. You would benefit greatly from a partner like that.

Just because we are women does not mean we do not pack a punch.

[Jeremy Stafford]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Yeah agreed. I was just basing my earlier comments off reading forum posts and watching videos. I should have just waited before commenting.

Words to live by.

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by PinkGloves

Do not be so quick to discredit the ladies.

One of your previous posts mentioned something about training with grandmothers not being beneficial for you. We have a 60 year old woman who trains with us. She is more aggressive and will push harder than many of the men who train there as well. She is currently training level four but continues to participate in the level one classes as well. You would benefit greatly from a partner like that.

Just because we are women does not mean we do not pack a punch.

I didn't mean any disrespect. Generally speaking woman aren't as strong as men and what I saw last night in the Level 1 class was that the women were hitting the pad a fraction of the speed my partner was.

[TheDarkKnight]

Well it looks like you got your answer. Good for you. Too bad you aren't going to remain in it.

You mentioned you wanted to train all out but you have back and knee issues? Is it even feasible to be participating in most martial arts? Especially full contact arts? It will be next to impossible to find excellent self defense if you can't go hard.

*edit* I also left a school where the instructor was rude. Similar situation to yours. My suggestion is that you leave immediately. That school is a business, you are a customer. Don't be treated poorly. Respect is a must in an environment where people are practicing harmful techniques.

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

Well it looks like you got your answer. Good for you. Too bad you aren't going to remain in it.

You mentioned you wanted to train all out but you have back and knee issues? Is it even feasible to be participating in most martial arts? Especially full contact arts? It will be next to impossible to find excellent self defense if you can't go hard.

*edit* I also left a school where the instructor was rude. Similar situation to yours. My suggestion is that you leave immediately. That school is a business, you are a customer. Don't be treated poorly. Respect is a must in an environment where people are practicing harmful techniques.

I didn't say I wouldn't continue. I may just join another KM school closer to home. As mentioned I would consider going there if I worked or lived closer to there. I will plan on checking out another KM school closer to south Denver where I live now.

I guess I thought I could go full speed with some minor injuries if I was well protected. The combo of loud music playing, being new, and not being well padded IMO can lead to injury. I had a hard time asking questions because the music was so loud.

Being new to the forum I don't fully understand how to navigate it but apparently someone knocked my reputation for posting to much and not just doing it. I don't understand that at all since a newbie has a lot of questions and has a right to ask questions. Isn't that what this forum is for? That's fine everyone has a right to their opinion. Thanks for those that gave helpful feedback.

[Don]

One of the videos I show regarding the dangers of being complacent/letting your guard down:

http://streetfightsecrets.darkbb.com...utt-video-clip

Another one:

http://matzav.com/video-palestinian-...sraeli-soldier

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by Don

One of the videos I show regarding the dangers of being complacent/letting your guard down:

http://streetfightsecrets.darkbb.com...utt-video-clip

Another one:

http://matzav.com/video-palestinian-...sraeli-soldier

I agree Don a lot of Silat/Kali folks carry more than one knife, referring to vid 2.

[mara_jade]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I didn't mean any disrespect. Generally speaking woman aren't as strong as men and what I saw last night in the Level 1 class was that the women were hitting the pad a fraction of the speed my partner was.

Unless you've gone to classes awhile, you don't know what level anyone is. Everyone trains at a different pace. Just because one may not hit as hard as your partner doesn't mean they wouldn't make good partner for you. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.

Take some more classes and feel free to come back with questions.

[stickfig13]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Wow I took the trial and man I thought I was in shape, not to KM standards. My feedback on KM Denver, Lyle was my instructor.

The Good

1. Allowed me to fully participate in the class.
2. Lyle was nice and helpful, but could have given a bit more instruction IMO, compared to my other school. It was just here is the technique here's how you do and blast away.
3. It was intense started with 15 minutes of hard cardio and then a quick break, a quick instruction and then blast away with a small pad at full speed.

The Bad

1. The never warned me to wear groin protection and Lyle kicked me in the nuts, not cool at all.
2. The train at full speed with small pads, bordering on dangerous esp. for a newbie like me. I almost got clocked in the face twice because my training partner told me to hold the pad here but he was much taller and the pad barely covered me on the elbow strike and then I did the gauntlet against a girl where I bear hugged her and because I was so much taller I couldn't' tuck my chin and she elbowed me in the face, luckily I am pretty tough and it was a girl hitting me not a guy.
3. They only allow 6 month or 12 month sign up and wanted an initiation fee. I said can't we go month to month and they guy said we don't have a gate keeper to keep track, BS, I said isn't that what a computer is for.

All in all I liked it and would consider going there if I work in downtown Denver or live closer as it is I am 35 miles away so I am going to check out another school closer.

I really liked the full speed drills, which we never do at my other school, but they need better safety gear, not small pads, for the money they charge.

Dude...You went from wanting to spar the first day to being afraid of the size of the pads....

Don't discount the females. If anything is a testament to how well KM works, it's the women!

I hope you find what you're looking for in a gym. Although I don't think an "MMA-Self Defense-No Contact but I like to spar- no music-with month-to-month contracts gym" exists

[Don]

I need to slow my reading speed down - upon first scan of stickfig's post, I saw "with mouth to mouth contacts"...

[CJs Dad]

Originally Posted by Don

I need to slow my reading speed down - upon first scan of stickfig's post, I saw "with mouth to mouth contacts"...

ROFL

[oglenewinkel]

I would hope Mouth to Mouth gets you some kind of discount?

[TheDarkKnight]

Discounted teeth maybe? Ha!

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by stickfig13

Dude...You went from wanting to spar the first day to being afraid of the size of the pads....

Don't discount the females. If anything is a testament to how well KM works, it's the women!

I hope you find what you're looking for in a gym. Although I don't think an "MMA-Self Defense-No Contact but I like to spar- no music-with month-to-month contracts gym" exists

Yeah fair enough. I guess I am too new to the whole MA SD scene to not really know what I want. I would like some heavier sparring with pads, just not having the tip of my shoulder bone jacked up for 2 days after trial is no good. I didn't really have much choice in partners the instructor keep making us switch and I end up with a guy much taller and he blasting 100% in the pad. I definitely agree that doing the drills at much faster speed is good, but it felt like the guy was going 100%. I asked some people in my existing SD school after that and that said its appropriate to go up to 60%.

I don't know though maybe some more experience folks can chime in what's an appropriate level of force to use in drills and sparring.

[TheDarkKnight]

There's no real "perscribed" force to use. But at the same time, you have to go hard to be as utmost realistic as possible. It's more of a feel thing otherwise. If I'm with a level 3 student and it's something from a previous level, there's no holding back. If it is a new technique, I hold back to avoid injuries. If it's an inexperienced student, I go easier. If I'm not sure, I can either ask or get a feel. If a partner is going hard or slow, I'll follow.

Don't be afraid to speak up if something is out of your comfort zone and injury is a possibility. Nobody needs to be injured.

[danielsaun]

Sure I agree I was a bit intimidated being new, and sensory overload. It's hard to ask questions when you have loud music blaring and the instructor goes fast from one drill to the next. I probably should have just refused to continue with this training partner. I was a good example of how well a pad really protects. I actually have a pretty decent pain tolerance but get blasted 100% by a guy with 3 months KM exp whom is in better shape and getting hit on the shoulder bone through the pad, hurts pretty bad esp. 20 times or so. I am thinking at that moment does this seem right? I really didn't know and everything was moving just so fast.

To me it would have made more sense to keep a close eye on use newbies on trial. We were treated just like regular class from what I saw and to me that's dangerous. Because I was already fatigued and some of my elbow, swinging back fist were getting sloppy, tired, and that pad not being that big I almost whacked my partner as I got more fatigued. But hey I was concerned I wouldn't be able to participate and that certainly wasn't the case :)

[TacticalTimmy]

I wouldn't worry about getting hit too much, it will eventually happen. I've taken a few hits to the groin, got headbutted in the face (broken nose) and taken some body shots. Just keep it clean, protect yourself at all times, and drink water :-D

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by TacticalTimmy

I wouldn't worry about getting hit too much, it will eventually happen. I've taken a few hits to the groin, got headbutted in the face (broken nose) and taken some body shots. Just keep it clean, protect yourself at all times, and drink water :-D

Tim did those injuries occur in KM training? I don't mind getting hit just getting whacked real hard, and I definitely am not signing up for an headbutt broken nose where I have to function the next day at work in corp. America. I can't show up looking like fight club.

[Don]

Unless your company has a specific rule or policy, it's part of your contract, and/or your appearance is critical for your job, you sure can.

You could have been fighting (mutual combat/training) BUT you could also have been mugged/attacked, you could have been defending/saving someone else, you could have fallen off a mountain bike/horse/donkey/mule/bull/llama/ostrich, you could have had a car/motorcycle/bus/boating/windsurfing accident, you could have slipped on water/ice/banana peel/marble, you could have bumped into something in the dark, you could have been hit by a racquet ball/baseball/softball/basketball/football/frisbee/shuttlecock/lawndart, you could have been bungee jumping and the bungee broke, you could have been skydiving and your chute didn't open, you could have participated in ANY NUMBER of "more socially acceptable" pastimes, hobbies, activities, etc and had experienced some kind of accident/misfortune...

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by Don

Unless your company has a specific rule or policy and/or your appearance is critical for your job, you sure can.

If I understand your post you are saying it can happen in class, HB accident. That would be a real problem for me, not currently having insurance, but close to being re-employed in outside sales where appearance is important. Imagine me going to interviews with a busted nose or bruises on my face, not good. Unless my potential hiring manager is a KM student as well.

That's part of the reason I can't use CCW because I walk into buildings where they say no guns allowed period, unless you are of course law enforcement. Downtown Denver is safe, for the most part, but as you saw recently Denver Metro can get violent in a moment's notice. My heart goes out to all those affected by the Aurora shooting.

Thanks for all the helpful feedback. I think I received what I needed from this thread and then some. Mod you can close it or do as you see fit.

[Don]

Originally Posted by oglenewinkel

I would hope Mouth to Mouth gets you some kind of discount?

hahaha

I think it will depend on what you look like... you know, like it's only sexual harassment if the other person is ugly...

btw, as vince vaughn would say, "I like where your head's at" - (my bro in blue, always thinking "frugally")...

[mara_jade]

Well said Don!

If anyone thinks they're NEVER gonna get hurt at some point training in Krav, best get that out of your head right now. Hubby's elbowed me in the mouth during class (of which he felt like crap for days LOL). I changed groin protector brands a few times to get the best one for me. Just because gals don't have the same jewels guys do doesn't mean we can't sing soprano too when we get hit.

From my perspective, there's training the way you fight and then just 'taking it' to make it like you're tough to others. Resolve is great, but play it smart.

[Don]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

If I understand your post you are saying it can happen in class, HB accident. That would be a real problem for me, not currently having insurance, but close to being re-employed in outside sales where appearance is important. Imagine me going to interviews with a busted nose or bruises on my face, not good. Unless my potential hiring manager is a KM student as well.

You initially were concerned only about your appearance when you go to work. NOW you are mentioning $$$ to take care of injuries and how you look when INTERVIEWING for employment - those are valid concerns but they are different topics and NOT what you brought up first...

[catapult]

unstopabl1's advice to Ryan seems worth repeating....

Originally Posted by unstpabl1

SHOW Up, SUIT UP. SHUT UP And PLAY is the best life lesson ever given to me...in the end success in everything starts with showing up. Every adult is afraid of looking stupid. Winners act in spite of fear. Unfortunately to get good at something your going to be bad at it because we learn theu mistake correction


The one thing you'll find in a Krav or fighters gym is that people are usually much much nicer and helpful than in a regular gym where dudes are staring at themselves in mirriors trying to look hard. Learning martial arts is a cooperative effort. I need you to get better so you can be a better partner to train with. Plus the people your training with go thrru the same fears...most people can relate

So SHOW UP and get thru the 1st class no matter what resistance comes up...then SHOW UP Again and again and your comfort zone will expand.

SUIT UP make sure to dress comfortable, have water/gatorade and equipment needed...if there are people waiting outside the room waiting for the class to begin or stretching before class walk up to someone and say Hi I'm Ryan. Actors do this on jobs it's called making friends with the set. Why? We're not inhibitd among friends. Besides it's harder to kill someone when you know their name

SHUT UP means to listen intently and do the best you can in the moment. Talking gets in the way because we tend to start making excuses, try to cover our fears and use it to cover up or get out of the difficult. I don't care how much difficulty your having trying to learn something i just don't want to hear you whining about. It cuts into my training time and lets face whining is the perfered tactic of Drama Queens and energy Vampires


PLAY means to let go and have as much fun as possible. We learn easier when we're having fun and others enjoy being around us. Training is rewarding and not easy. It can be frustraing, scary and painful but its also exhilerating and healthy. BUT it all depends on your attitudeas do all things in life. also when your playing the focus is off of yourself and you send that little witch( where I come from we spell it with a B) of your inner critic on vacation for a bit

Either way SHOW UP and you'll end up with a group of great new healthy friends. ShOW UP enough and you'll become the same

[KMyoshi]

Krav Maga translates to "contact combat" you cannot expect to NOT have the chance of getting hurt... as with any physical sport, whether it be basketball, football, etc. etc. including other martial arts that revolve around contact/sparring. But keep in mind that the founder of Krav Maga (Imi Lichtenfeld) also strongly emphasized in training safely without getting hurt... so Krav Maga is not just go hard and be as realistic as possible and disregard all safety during training.

[TheDarkKnight]

Thus far I have yet to receive what I'd call serious injuries. The most I've had is skinned knuckles, swollen finger, bruised forearm, and a lot of soreness.
Just know your limit but don't be afraid to test that limit. Become familiar with things like R.I.C.E. (rest, ice, compress, elevate). Oh and Tiger Balm is my friend.

[TacticalTimmy]

Daniel, you can't enter that kind of training and not expect to get hurt. I was a Marine for 8 years. I was in the infantry. I got hurt tons of times, as one would expect to in that occupation. Injury is inevitable. Anything you do can get you hurt, including doing nothing (high cholesterol sucks!). You won't get hurt that often in Krav, and it generally won't be that bad. This isn't kid-glove stuff, this is fighting survival. If you are unwilling or unable to take a few accidental hits during training, how do you think you will react when your mind encounters a stimulus causing you to choose fight or flight? Flight may not be an option, or you might have to take a few hits to get there. When an assailant is on top of you raining down blows, Krav will give you the tools and experience you need to forcibly remove him from your person so you can escape, or make him wish he never got there in the first place. Sometimes both. Don't take this as a lashing, take it as a thought provoking post. It takes some mental cojones to enter a situation where you are likely to be hit. Some people never train, but when the time comes they do great. That's awesome and all, but it's rare and a recipe for disaster. Test your limits and find out how much you can do.

[danielsaun]

I was thinking about everyone's recent posts about the injuries, and I get bruised right now with light/medium no pad sparring, so I am no wimp. Last weekend I got a puncture wound/scrap grappling on the lawn with a training partner, heavy bark into flesh.

I was just frankly scared when my training partner in KM is coming in 100% blasting simulated attacks when he has only 3 months MA exp. I don't think his motor control is that good to be coming in that fast and hard against a trial member that doesn't know what he is doing.

I will probably do as I planned and look at the other KM school its much closer to home and see how they compare. Its affiliated with a diff. org. so it will be interesting to see how it compares.

I guess I just hoped that for $$$ as Krav is IMO they would have better protection for students since some obviously train all out. It wouldn't have mattered if I didn't have a spaz for a training partner that night though. He was a nice guy just taking it a bit to seriously on trial person.

Too funny I worry that some KM schools are soft and I get more than I bargain for LOL.

Thanks for the help again.

[TheDarkKnight]

Was your partner aware that you were a new student? Some schools are big enough that it's hard to keep track.

What organization is this other Krav Maga schools affiliated with? Post it here so we can have a look. Maybe somebody can give you some tips/advice on this other school. A lot of people in Krav Maga know each other. It's not as big of a world as say Karate. When do you plan to attend?

If it's under Krav Maga Global, Krav Maga Alliance, or a few others, there won't be much difference. The quality should still be high, but only a knowledgeable Kravist will be able to pick up on the small variations. I have noticed that many of the drills I see at my school are pretty universal as well.

And sure, my Krav Maga school is "soft".....when prepping days before a test or learning new techniques. You merely got a glimpse in time on those particular videos.

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

Was your partner aware that you were a new student? Some schools are big enough that it's hard to keep track.

What organization is this other Krav Maga schools affiliated with? Post it here so we can have a look. Maybe somebody can give you some tips/advice on this other school. A lot of people in Krav Maga know each other. It's not as big of a world as say Karate. When do you plan to attend?

If it's under Krav Maga Global, Krav Maga Alliance, or a few others, there won't be much difference. The quality should still be high, but only a knowledgeable Kravist will be able to pick up on the small variations. I have noticed that many of the drills I see at my school are pretty universal as well.

And sure, my Krav Maga school is "soft".....when prepping days before a test or learning new techniques. You merely got a glimpse in time on those particular videos.

Yes he was aware I was brand new and so was the instructor. I am going to look at KM Alliance in Castle Rock, CO. RMSDF run by John Hallett. The whole idea of training close to downtown Denver was predicated on me finding employment in downtown again, I live 35 miles away so that's far. There are 2 schools affiliated with IKMF? but they are pretty far away. I just didn't want to post until you asked because there seems to be a lot of infighting in KM between orgs, at least from what I have seen posted on the net. So I appreciate the group's feedback on alliance. I am not sure exactly when I will go there, in the next 2 weeks most likely.

[catapult]

I don't know John Hallett but he certainly sounds well qualified.

http://www.rmkravmaga.com/index.php?...=61&Itemid=128

[Traveler]

You should see the incredible dark purple guy liner I'm wearing right now. The wife isn't too happy, the kids think it looks cool, and my co workers look at me a little different- those that had enough courage to ask what happened.

I told them the truth. My 6' 3" 270lb training partner got sloppy with inside defense counter, no pads,no gloves drill before sparring. I ate a very nicely thrown elbow strike just below the eyebrow. The drill was not to make contact.

It happens- not too often last time I was sporting 2 black eyes for my wifes family wedding about 3 years ago. Something about 50% that turns into 75% which ends with a little blood, some smiles, exaustion, and high fives. I learned the hard way why it is so important to keep your hands up.

You have chosen or are interested in Krav Maga not book club- it's not for everyone and that's okay. I believe you get what you put into it.

[bear34]

Originally Posted by Traveler

You should see the incredible dark purple guy liner I'm wearing right now. The wife isn't too happy, the kids think it looks cool, and my co workers look at me a little different- those that had enough courage to ask what happened.

I told them the truth. My 6' 3" 270lb training partner got sloppy with inside defense counter, no pads,no gloves drill before sparring. I ate a very nicely thrown elbow strike just below the eyebrow. The drill was not to make contact.

It happens- not too often last time I was sporting 2 black eyes for my wifes family wedding about 3 years ago. Something about 50% that turns into 75% which ends with a little blood, some smiles, exaustion, and high fives. I learned the hard way why it is so important to keep your hands up.

You have chosen or are interested in Krav Maga not book club- it's not for everyone and that's okay. I believe you get what you put into it.

Last Tuesday a bobbed and weaved and head butted a left hook. I got cut across the bridge of the nose and under my eye by either a thumbnail or a chip in the glove. It really wasn't serious but I looked pretty gruesome the next morning. When asked what happened at work i just said, "The last thing I remember is my wife asking, 'Doe's this make my ass look big?'" My training partner felt pretty bad but I knew it wasn't malicious. Stuff happens.

[catapult]

Originally Posted by catapult

A fast punch is more powerful than a slow punch.
A fast punch is harder to see than a slow punch.
A fast punch is harder to block than a slow punch.
A tense punch is slow.
A relaxed punch is fast.

I just watched Ali-Foreman 1974 on ESPN Classics and it was a perfect example. At the time, Foreman was the champ, was built like a ripped slab of beef, and had incredible 1-punch knockout power. But most of his punches were tense and Ali could see them coming a mile away. He just did the rope-a-dope and slipped or blocked most of Foreman's punches. He didn't dance because he wanted to prove Foreman couldn't hit him enough to matter. Ali's punches OTOH were just a blur. He kept tagging Foreman on the face and finally knocked him out.

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by catapult

I just watched Ali-Foreman 1974 on ESPN Classics and it was a perfect example. At the time, Foreman was the champ, was built like a ripped slab of beef, and had incredible 1-punch knockout power. But most of his punches were tense and Ali could see them coming a mile away. He just did the rope-a-dope and slipped or blocked most of Foreman's punches. He didn't dance because he wanted to prove Foreman couldn't hit him enough to matter. Ali's punches OTOH were just a blur. He kept tagging Foreman on the face and finally knocked him out.

I have been trying really hard to work on punching fast and relaxed. I just can't do it, yet. When I think about it, I have muscled it tense for 20 plus years in sports and it served me, whether it be swimming, mountain biking, you name it. I would just get angry and brute force my way through it and it worked for me. When I recently tried to relax and do the drills at aforementioned SD school I was so slow on blocks I was getting hit. I guess this an advanced concept that will only come in time, if at all.

[PinkGloves]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

When I think about it

That could be part of the problem. You might be concentrating too much on what not to do that you're unable to relax. I would practice shadow boxing without concentrating on making a proper punch. We often tell our level one students to think about flicking water off of their fingers when they start shadow boxing. This keeps the arm and hand relaxed, while still allowing them to work on driving from the ground and engaging their body.

[danielsaun]

Originally Posted by PinkGloves

That could be part of the problem. You might be concentrating too much on what not to do that you're unable to relax.

That would make sense since I over think just about everything. Its who I am.

[PinkGloves]

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Its who I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Et28kBi1A

[KMyoshi]

As you train, you will gradually learn to control your body better. When I first started sparring, I was pretty stiff and this tired me out very quickly. Same with our ground fighting classes, when we would roll, I was flopping around like fish out of water. I have since learned to breathe better and stay in control of the situation. Yesterday I went to fight class when I haven't gone to a fight class in a couple of weeks and during that absence I would shadow box. My training partner said I got much better on my feet and I was also throwing and landing my combos much more... train hard every time and you will reap the rewards.