Shooting in Colorado Movie Theater

[KMyoshi]

Just a terrible, terrible tragedy. He was fully armed with an AR-15, a 12-gauge shotgun and a Glock .40 (according to news articles) and was in full riot gear with gas mask, riot helmet, bulletproof vest and possibly even a groin protector. Krav Maga, or whatever art you want, you can't disarm someone if you can't get within range of him and anyone within range of him was most likely the one to be shot. He also threw out tear gas before opening fire...

Such a damn tragedy.

http://gma.yahoo.com/colorado-batman...opstories.html

[jacgue36]

Truly a horror!!

That's where the legal carrying of a firearm fills the gap! Just Saying!

[TheDarkKnight]

With all due respect Jacgue...what your suggesting is that people shoot back in a room with tear gas in hopes to not hit people who are in a panic running to escape? People are zoned out in a movie and people are already dressed up like their favorite characters.

[Don]

It's definitely not an easy or simple situation - a LOT of variables could come into play. To back what jacgue is saying - IF a good guy (or two or three) in the audience also has a firearm, THEN at least you have that option. There have been quite a few active shooter type incidents where an off-duty officer or an armed citizen was able to stop the threat and save lives because they were warriors, were in the right place at the right time, and were also armed.

[TheDarkKnight]

Don, maybe so for all we know. I'm not sure it's possible or impossible but there was tear gas making it a unique situation.

Of course this is all speculation.

*Not trying to turn this into a debate. It is a very sad situation.*

[bear34]

I don't want to turn this into a ProGun vs AntiGun thread but can someone tell me why Average Joe should be allowed to buy bulletproof assault gear?

[TheDarkKnight]

That made me wonder as well but are dealing with Average Joe? He went to the extent of rigging his apartment with elaborate explosives. That's not info you find at your local library.

[TacticalTimmy]

Originally Posted by bear34

I don't want to turn this into a ProGun vs AntiGun thread but can someone tell me why Average Joe should be allowed to buy bulletproof assault gear?

Unless you're wearing heavy armor designed to defeat .50 caliber or larger AP rounds, no such thing as bullet proof, only bullet resistant. The only conceivable reason I can conjure up to make that illegal is that civilians may use them in a shooting rampage. In this instance, it proved to be a non-factor as the suspect surrendered. Either way, if someone REALLY wanted to go on a "rampage" with something bullet resistant, innovation would guide them to heavy metals. Although the suit would be heavy and difficult to maneuver in, it's still a threat. At this point, better to let someone who's defending their home or in fear of their life (IE business executives and anybody else with a threat who may not be able to carry a firearm without significant repercussions) to purchase and wear protection than to let them go slick. Even bullet-resistant can stop the bullets sometimes.

[catapult]

My $.02, in the emotions of the moment, it's easy to point a finger at the easy access to weapons but where does it end? How about cars? It's easy for a whack job to crash his car through a crowd of people. Or gasoline? Throw a 5-gallon Molotov cocktail into a crowd and it's a horror. Crazy people will find a way. Just sayin'...

[resqr1]

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

Don, maybe so for all we know. I'm not sure it's possible or impossible but there was tear gas making it a unique situation.

Of course this is all speculation.

*Not trying to turn this into a debate. It is a very sad situation.*

Tear gas and OC are only effective based on the potency. For training we were sprayed directly in the face with 500,000 Scoville Heat Unit pepper spray. I was able to run around the corner, fight with the "bad guy" and put him in cuffs well before the spray affected me. That's plenty of time to put lead into a douchebag who is standing on stage, in front of the movie screen as witness reports have said he was. Makes it pretty obvious who the bad guy is.

[jacgue36]

Dark Knight: As you said, not to make this a debate.



I didn't mean to sound so simplistic but my initial comment was simply offering an option to your concern:



"Krav Maga, or whatever art you want, you can't disarm someone if you can't get within range of him".


As Don said, having a firearm gives you the OPTION (not the obligation) of responding to the threat. I believe that part of being a responsible gun owner, especially if you carry one, is knowing your limitations under the circumstances. As well as knowing when to get involved and when it's best to be a good witness (which is most of the time).



Though it may not be the majority, there are those that do train and have the ability to react under the most stressful of circumstances. If there were someone present, maybe there wouldn't have been 70+ victims of such a senseless attack!


As unique of a situation as it was, it is definitely possible to respond in such chaos. Those in law enforcement and the military do it all the time. So do thugs on the street. There's plenty of evidence of people fighting through taser hits, pepper spray, beatings and even multiple gunshot wounds (as I'm sure many of victims at the theater did to get out of the building). Much of it depends on your mindset, as Don mentioned. One must maintain the warrior mindset, a Krav principle, and not that of a victim. Again, not so simple when you're in the middle of craziness but more than possible.

[esquire32]

Not that anyone could or would have had much chance irrespective of what they did. However, drives home the point of being environmentally and situationally aware always. MAYBE, just Maybe, there may have been a tell or some sign some could have picked up on prior to the tragedy.

[TheDarkKnight]

It makes me wonder...will more people turn to martial arts as a result of the incident?

[Don]

+1 on what resqr and jagcue said.

Originally Posted by bear34

I don't want to turn this into a ProGun vs AntiGun thread but can someone tell me why Average Joe should be allowed to buy bulletproof assault gear?

I don't really have a problem with an average joe owning guns and body armor. That being said, one big problem can be trying to figure out who the whackos and scumbags are within the group of average looking joes. I'm for arming citizens but would prefer that they go through a background/character/common sense check and proper training.

The bigger problem is that we actually have a substantial number of people (IDIOTS) who think it's OK for CONVICTED FELONS (even of armed/violent crimes) to possess body armor. Unfortunately, some of these same people are in positions where they can give (much) lesser sentences/punishments for crimes committed, they can permit (way) early release for inmates and prisoners, and just before leaving office they can give full pardons to dozens (and more) of convicted felons - all with absolutely no accountability whatsoever...

[Don]

Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight

It makes me wonder...will more people turn to martial arts as a result of the incident?

Dunno about that. More people might go out and buy guns. Or they may stay home more...

[jacgue36]

Originally Posted by Don

I don't really have a problem with an average joe owning guns and body armor. That being said, one big problem can be trying to figure out who the whackos and scumbags are within the group of average looking joes. I'm for arming citizens but would prefer that they go through a background/character/common sense check and proper training.

I agree that we should put all the safeguards that we can in place to make sure these things don't get into the wrong hands but the unfortunate reality is that the 'bad guys' and whackos don't play by the rules. IF they want a handgun, body armor, assault rifles or want info on how to build a bomb, they will buy it, steal it, kill for it, research it or whatever, to get what they want. It happens everyday!!

The only thing I can control is my level of preparedness and mindset.

[TacticalTimmy]

Originally Posted by jacgue36

The only thing I can control is my level of preparedness and mindset.

I feel like that's where our society is going wrong. Naturally, there are points in our days/lives where we're vulnerable and can't control that, but personal responsibility and accountability are being removed from the suspect AND the victim at an alarming rate. Some states don't allow citizens to take responsibility for their own active defense, and they must rely on passive measures such as "I hope I don't get robbed in my house tonight."

[KMyoshi]

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments Timmy. I think it is total BS that we even have to worry about getting robbed or shot or whatever violent crime that may be and have to resort to taking self defense classes and possibly even getting a concealed weapons permit.

[TacticalTimmy]

I don't think it is BS to worry about getting robbed or shot, I think it is BS to have to worry that you won't be able to defend yourself because local/state/federal laws prevent you from carrying, or using in a practical manner, the tools you need to defend yourself and your family. I know that crime will happen, and I know most of them are going to wait until I make myself vulnerable. So at best, I avoid those situations, carry a firearm where I can and hope that I don't have to suffer through a civil suit from the assailant's family if I have to use it.

[unstpabl1]

I think most people in the gun debate think it's ok for them to have guns but not you...Like the star who comes out antigun then turns out they have a ccw I probably can't get. Not to mention the armed guy walking with them

i remember on set one night the female star with the stalker ranting about antigun and me and her armed 2 tour in Astan Ateam bodyguard are just smiling at each other. I walked up to him a bit later and asked if he wanted to bet paychecks she's got a gun in her purse


gun laws are a tough subject because people do stupid **** all the time, like shooting each other over koolaid and parking spaces or spraying pepper spray to get an Xbox at xmas...then again because they do stupid **** I deserve the ability to protect myself

[Don]

I think politicians, lawyers, judges, etc are really good at making rules for other people but exempting themselves from those same rules and/or making decisions that will never affect them but will affect the hell out of regular people...

[catapult]

Originally Posted by Don

Dunno about that. More people might go out and buy guns. Or they may stay home more...

Yup, they said on the news tonight that gun sales are way up in the area. Shrug.

[unstpabl1]

Originally Posted by Don

I think politicians, lawyers, judges, etc are really good at making rules for other people but exempting themselves from those same rules and/or making decisions that will never affect them but will affect the hell out of regular people...

Yep!!!!

I learned a lesson at 16. Worked in a grocery store in the late 70's. I use to love catching shoplifters. We busted a very prominent judge one night that almost caused a race riot with over $500 worth of meat in her car...The next day we were kinda suprised that none of the media had covered this. We were however told that night before leaving work to come to a madatory meeting later that day..we thought we were going to get some sort of reward or something


The next day the owner of the chain and the head of the states Democratic Party innformed us that we were not to say a word about this to anyone. It didn't happen. if we did we would be terminated..and the tone of the meeting was as if we screwed up....see it turned out this person had some things going for them. Female judge, leader in the black community and big in the state Democratic party

It was swept away.....I moved from that state and didn't pay attention to its politics but many years later I discovered this woman went on to become STATE TREASURER for a long time. Wonder what happened to some of the broke azz people we busted


Still pisses me off decades later

[KMyoshi]

Originally Posted by unstpabl1

.... Still pisses me off decades later

Please write a "Tell All" about this said judge... it would probably be a #1 bestseller. Besides, are they going to "terminate" you now?... or are they talking about another type of terminate?

[unstpabl1]

Originally Posted by KMyoshi

Please write a "Tell All" about this said judge... it would probably be a #1 bestseller. Besides, are they going to "terminate" you now?... or are they talking about another type of terminate?

LOL no they can't terminate anymore almost 40 years later ...but no way to prove what I've said