Is Krav Maga Useless in Ground Fighting?

[Krav21]

I was having a debate with a friend of mine whos a UFC Fan Plus Brazllian Jui jitsu specialist, he claims Krav is mostly useless in this aspect whats you guys opinions?

[lennyKRAVitz]

In sport ground fighting, probably better than knowing nothing at all.

In real life, it could save your life.

[PinkGloves]

To the best of my knowledge, the main objective in Krav's groundfighting curriculum is to get up as quickly as possible. It is not designed for the "chess match" you get with grappling or a program specifically designed for groundfighting.

[unstpabl1]

CJ's dad says if he wanted to roll around on the floor he'd buy a Labador. Maybe thats why he owns pitbulls

[TacticalTimmy]

I suppose grappling works as long as partners or weapons aren't involved.

[t-krav]

Tonight we ran, what in my humble opinion, was a great drill in our ground class. The defender would get on the ground and 1 attacker would put him in any type of ground control desired - side control, mount, scarf hold, etc. After 5 seconds of trying to get up/reverse a 2nd attacker would with 16oz gloves would start hitting the defender.

This completely changed the game for me. Instead of wrestling attacker #1 I had to position myself to reduce strikes to vulnerable areas like my head and try and keep the 2nd guy at bay until I could break out. I didn't have time to play chess w/attacker #1 I had to minimize damage while controlling the access attacker #2 had AND try and escape.

We did this at full strength wrestling power but very limited punching power.

Also I had an epiphany when I was attacker #1. Instead of defeating the defender on my own my goal was to get the defender in a vulnerable position so that my buddy attacker #2 could wail on his face.

Some really good lessons learned tonight. I look forward to doing this drill again. And again w/weapons.

[unstpabl1]

Its interesting reading the Gracie mag I get in email. Most bjj schools are sport JJ focused. In one of the vids the Gracie's put out recently they shhowed how in sport jj from the bottom you wanted to keep the opponent away from you but in street or mma you want to hug him tight. Thy're polar opposites of each other soooo if you only train sports jits which most schools seem to do you may be in trouble when punches and other stuff comes into play


Does that make bjj worthless and krav superior of course not. Most bjj is simply a smaller piece of the SD spectrum. A very effective piiece of the puzzle and more so if trained for the purpose of SD

in factbthe Gracie mag addressed this because of a bjj student who learned the lesson the hard way. The Gracie academy contends that most bjj schools only teach sport bjj and one of their main rules for SD is to never go to the ground voluntarily which seems to suprise people

I think the vid I'm talking about is on youtube now. Probably under the heading Street vs sport JJ or something like that adding
the gracie name might help

You'll find that everybody feels their system is superior. In the case of krav vs sprt both can be effective but the focus is different. One trains for time limits weight classes and agreed upon combat the other assumes an ambush, weapons or multiples. Both use similar delivery systems

Hope that helps

[unstpabl1]

heres the vid and yadda yadda yes of course they're selling their system but its an interesting discussion


www.youtube.com/watch?v=e864iZ4sB8Q

[KevinMack]

and if you are fighting with rules you better know and understand the rules


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57J54Dkbk5I

[GatorBoy]

@ T-Krav, we run this drill also, however instead of using gloves we will sometimes have the second attacker, attack with a knife. You see the deadly reality of defending on the ground real quick with this drill. We have some guys from American Top Team come in and train with us from time to time for self defense, mostly weapons. Some are very good grapplers and can out grapple every individual in the class, but they have yet to win a 2 on 1 grappling match in my school.

@ Kevin, what a great video. Something so simple to show that pulling guard may not always be your best defense. Thank goodness that wasn't on concrete. That fella may had wound up in the hostpital.

[rickprado]

I prefer to focus on not going to the ground and drill that a lot. However, if/when I wind up on the ground, my first instinct is to get up as quickly as possible, using whatever tool/skill at my disposal. Groin shots, eye gouges, leveraging and breaking a finger, you name it, I'll do it.

All of these things are done standing up and can be used on the ground. It's not going to be a fair fight, no sense trying to go for arm bars and all that if you have to worry about someone else bashing your head in.

.03

[TacticalTimmy]

I'm a fan of creating a disparity of force between you and your assailant(s). One of my goals is to establish violence superiority and attempt to exit. I particularly like to get a weapon of opportunity if I can't bring my own to bear. I try to maintain situational awareness of things I could use as a weapon. This isn't mall ninja stuff, this is me doing a little pre-assault recon so that I'm not scrambling during the assault. I consider walls, floors, permanently mounted tables, chairs, mounted barstools, air-hand dryers in the bathroom, urinals, everything, as a weapon. If I can't bring it to them, I will bring them to it. And then leave in an expeditious manner.

[t-krav]

I love the term Bas Rutten uses to describe the pre assault recon - he says use the "ambiance" of the room. Salt shaker - BAM in the face, Hot Sauce bottle - SPLAT in the eyes, Table Top - WHAM.

[Falcon2507]

Well I was looking for the most effective Self defense system to learn and teach my son, I have studied Many forms of Krav Maga threw documents "and applied it", My background is Karate By the way. I see all the styles of Krav Maga and the combination between them to be very affective in real life situations one of the best if not the best; but have a major weakness point and that is if the krav maga practitioner happens to fight with a Jiu Jitsu person on the ground like most fights end up, the the jiu jitsu Guy took control then vuala the jitsu guy can kill or mime the Krav guy with little effort, but if the Krav Maga Guy Know Jiu jitsu even up to green level and fights with an expert jitsu Guy given the other Krav Maga skills in real life situations like hitting where it counts then definitely the Advantage will be to the krav maga person. To conclude I believe that to eliminate this weakness from Krav Maga there should be more emphasis on ground fighting and some specific emphasis on how to defeat some one that play Jiu Jitsu and escape his control in the krav maga context.

[TacticalTimmy]

Maybe we should separate sport-jiu jitsu, which is taught at a TON of places, from actual jiu jitsu. Either way, if I get on the ground with a jiu jitsu practitioner, I'm going for eyes and ears with my fingers and teeth. I'm not saying I'll win every time, but they'll come away regretting having taken me down. That's the problem I have with practitioners of BJJ and MMA, most of them are sticking to rules made for safe sport.

[catapult]

The biggest problem I have with most BJJ guys is they want to go to the ground because they think they have an advantage there. But on the street, if he takes me to the ground, even if he's so good he's dominating me, how does he know my buddy isn't going to step around the corner and kick him in the head while he's going for a choke or a joint manipulation?

[TacticalTimmy]

You said in better words one of the things I was trying to emphasize.

[unstpabl1]

Again there is a differnce between gi and No gi, Sport and street jits. The Gracie Academy in their street SD class advise not to take the fight to the ground....flat out...in the sports venue a lotta guys flop to their back because A) Their bottoms...SHHHH!!! rather they like the bottom game or their school doesn't work takedowns enough for them to feel comfotable...Its to me one of the bullcrap parts onf the sport but it shouldn't be considered part of the bjj solution to the street.

Sean and I have a friend whose great at BJJ , but he was also a D2 wrestler and a practicing Judo BB. He competes in both bjj anf judo and would much perfer to dump someone on their head both in comp or street

[lions2011]

hi unstop. I do not know if you remember me since its been over a year just wanted to say hi.

I am doing Muay Thai still for the last 15 months. I really like it but as sure as HELL would never want to compete in it. So just safe practice is enough for me lol

Judo seems like a very complex martial art to learn from what I read and is one of the most difficult to learn.

[lions2011]

JUst because BJJ is sports focus does not mean it will not translate into a real life street situation.

A good white belt in BJJ could easily slap on an arm bar, kimura or triangle on you before you even knew what happen and it would be over. That simple.

so I would use caution when saying BJJ is only good for sport. It works in any situation.

And BJJ is great for smaller guys who are not as physical as others because it works off leverage.

However, as they say in Krav you are far safer on your feet.

[lions2011]

KRav teaches some basic escapes and has tons of strikes on the ground with hands and kicks. So Krav has some ground stuff just nothing like BJJ.

[CJs Dad]

Seriously? I have to admit Lions yours comments are always worth a good laugh.

I just hope the newer members of the forums catch on quickly. Nice to have you back, I’ve missed the comic relief, always leaves me shaking my head.

[t-krav]

What Krav curriculum are you looking at? Arm bars, Kimura's, Triangles are all taught in in KMWW curriculum - as well as escapes from the guard, mount, hi mount etc. Where study Krav they also teach escape from different ground positions like side control, scarf hold, guillotene, RNC etc.

BJJ is a great sport and one that can add to your toolbox. Rolling in BJJ classes (gi or no gi) is also excellent training.

So depending on what your are looking for there are different options. Krav gives your a great base of situational awareness, ability to "switch yourself on", stand up striking, ground defense, the context of multiple attackers, making space and dealing with weapons (sticks, knives, guns). Oh, and sometimes you can even take 3rd party protection seminars and learn how to deal with threats to your loved ones or companions.

$0.02,

[lions2011]

T-krav. Yes but the BJJ taught at Krav is not the same quality as you will get from a BJJ School. In fact you will be missing a lot of the more subtle points that will cause the submission to lose effectiveness. Plus it is hard to remember when you do not do it for a regular basis.
Still, I really enjoy Krav and highly recommend it. Just being honest about the submissions being taught in Krav.

[lions2011]

Thanks CJ's Dad. I am surprised you remember me from 15 months ago or so. I do not remember being one of your favorites here lol. Glad I make you laugh even through it is not a joyful laugh.

I have been training as hard as my mid 30 year old body allows me. I just wish I Started martial arts about 10-12 yrs earlier but better now than never.

[Psyops]

Take a look. Perhaps this helps a bit. http://lasvegaskravmaga.com/ground-fighting/