Very good videos

[CLFMak]

At www.dogbrothers.com on the main page, there's two new video clips labelled \"die less often\" and \"knife ruminations\". Both have some similar ideas, and talk about the realities of knife defense. In the second one, Mark Denny (the guiding force behind Dog Brothers) talks about how they have recently been adding scenario training due to some work with Southnarc (a fairly popular charactr as far as RBSD goes, and the guy that runs Shivworks I believe). It looks more \"krav-like\" than a lot of other Dog Brothers material- scenario drills, adrenaline training. I like the use of arm control against the knife (which I don't see much of in krav, but I think its a good thing to have in your arsenal) and guiding it into a control position instead of trying to block each individual attack and counter. The second one also has a long rumination by Mark Denny, who I could listen to for hours. The first one also gets into the use of the pistol at close quarters against the knife, and involves Mark Denny and Gabe Suarez, who I've heard of even without being a \"gun guy\" so I assume he is pretty prolific.
I should mention that they might not be work safe- there gets to be lots of cursing (as well there should be) in some scenarios, and the first one has some graphic images of knife wounds.

[kravjeff]

Good Post - Gabe Suarez is awesome ... He has a forum as well, that has threads on all things combat (H2H, Guns, Knives, Combat Medicine, the list goes on and on ...) Highly recommended. www,warriortalk.com

I wasn't familiar with dogbrothers - Die Less Often looks good.

[Anonymous]

I downloaded one of the videos, but couldn't watch it. :cry: What else do they show? Are they on youtube?

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Giantkiller

[CLFMak]

The first video is for an upcoming video called \"Die Less Often\", that seems to detail the interface between the knife, gun and empty hand in adrenaline drills. If you do some of these drills, you learn that when you're not so good you die a lot, and when you get better you die less often. It starts with a video of First Lady Imelda Marcos being attacked by a man with a knife in 1972. In the chaos, a man is seen with a revolver but doesn't manage to shoot the guy with the knife, which I suppose is to show that at close quarters training is needed to deal with knife violence, whether you have a knife, gun or nothing. In a number of the drills shown, an attacker with a knife charges and the other guy defends, sometimes successfully. Successful counters usually result from controlling the arm into a control position like an arm bar, where you can break the joint, strip the weapon, draw your own weapon etc. In some drills, rubber guns are used, and the knife attacker charges and usually defeats the attacker. Sometimes the guy with the gun gets a takedown, creates space and gets a shot off. There's also a clip of Gabe Suarez going through a drill where he is shooting at a target and it jams so he transfers to a second pistol, empties it, then attacks the target with a large knife (maybe a Cold Steel Voyager XL). There's some very graphic images of knife wounds during the video.
The seond video is Mark Denny kind of rambling about the knife, with other clips spliced in. He talks about a man named Umali and some of the problems knife training presents. For those who don't know, Isaias Umali was a guy trained in some FMA and while at a party intoxicated ended up stabbing a large bouncer in the thigh. He wasn't trying to kill him, but hit his femoral artery, and Umali ended up killing the man, and was sentenced to 17 years in prison. He tried to kill himself at some point. The gist of the rumintion is well covered in James Keating's similar article here:
http://www.themartialist.com/0503/darkside.htm

[kravjeff]

\"In some drills, rubber guns are used, and the knife attacker charges and usually defeats the attacker.\"

I noticed this too ... Looked to me like they were waaay to preoccupied with getting to their firearm to defend the knife --- Kind of puts things in perspective!

[jburtonpdx]

Uhm all I can say is wow, I mean wow. That is a big eye opener. I suppose that I knew some of this already but did not really pay any attention to it...

Makes me really want to focus on knife defenses all that much more. If you think about it, the knife is such a common weapon out there and once you are at close range with a bad guy, that could be it....

[kravjeff]

I agree - I haven't done a lot of weapons training yet (can't wait!) but from what I have learned, and in the book Krav Maga: How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault by Imi Sde-Or and Eyal Yanilov (they may know a thing or two about a thing or two :wink: ), the importance of controlling the weapon can not be overstated. This video shows why!

[CLFMak]

I went to a knife defense seminar by Eyal once, and the drills were somewhat similar to the video. One drill started with you and your partner facing each other while kneeling, with a knife between the two of you. Eyal would shout \"Go\" and both would try to grab the knife. If you got it, you'd start attacking. If you didn't, you'd have to defend until you could run away. He taught us to put our hand in our shirt and feel our bodies while running away, to see if you were hit because you might not feel it. A similar knife drill was done standing up. We ended with a drill where you were in a group of four, and tow had knives, one had a tombstone pad, and one was a defender. The defender tried to keep the attackers in a sort of funnel so noone could get behind you, and if they did you usually died. \"Die Less Often\" is a very apt name for adrenaline training with knives.
It was a very good seminar, but there was a few things that made it different than the video. One thing- the 360 defense with a simultaneous strike was emphasized over controlling the arm. I think this comes from the simulated striking as opposed to wearing padding, allowing for less of a \"point sparring approach\"- it allows things to evolve in two different directions. Look at the beginning of American Kickboxing, and continue to the current day, noting modern kickboxing compared to point karate tournaments. Both started (more or less) when gloves were added to karate. But they don't resemble each other anymore. I see knife defense as the same thing- simulated strikes, although much better than some by rote techniques, can yield different results than going at it continuously with gear. I think both have their merits and should work together. The striking way is good to train against the possibility of not seeing the knife when the arm attack you. If you can see the knife, I think its better to go for control of the arm and the use of knees, kicks, headbutts and stomps to set up a throw or joint lock to take the weapon away or position yourself to draw your weapon.

[Anonymous]

We do try to control the knife though, after the initial strike. You block and counter simultaneously, then push the arm back and grab at the wrist, then continue with more knees (for downward stab). For other stabs you control, too, right after the simultaneous block and counter. Of course you would also have the option to retreat, if that one strike gives you the opportunity to do so safely. For knife threats, we do grab the weapon hand, then strike, then get a second hand on it, if necessary.

For the gun vs knife, if they were using rubber guns, how could they know whether a real gun would or would not have stopped the knife man? It seems you could only tell for sure if you are using real bullets.

These videos sound very interesting. Too bad I can't watch them. How can we get them on youtube?

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Giantkiller

[CLFMak]

I couldn't find them on Youtube, but found this other Dog Brothers video that gets to the core of what they do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c

[Anonymous]

Cool, I'll try to load it tomorrow.

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Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Originally Posted by \"Giantkiller\"

We do try to control the knife though, after the initial strike. You block and counter simultaneously, then push the arm back and grab at the wrist, then continue with more knees (for downward stab). For other stabs you control, too, right after the simultaneous block and counter. Of course you would also have the option to retreat, if that one strike gives you the opportunity to do so safely. For knife threats, we do grab the weapon hand, then strike, then get a second hand on it, if necessary.

For the gun vs knife, if they were using rubber guns, how could they know whether a real gun would or would not have stopped the knife man? It seems you could only tell for sure if you are using real bullets.

These videos sound very interesting. Too bad I can't watch them. How can we get them on youtube?

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Giantkiller

__________________________________________________ ____

This was actually my point. Again, with limited knowledge: While we do defend and counter (preferably simultaneously) it is imperative, if unable to safely remove yourself from danger, to gain control of the attacking arm in order to avoid subsequent attacks and to either continue with combatives or disarm the attacker (unless of course you're fortunate enough to drop the attacker with the counter :twisted: ).

GK - RE: Rubber Guns - In many cases, they couldn't even get them unholstered before they were bleeding - When they did, it looked unlikely that they could have gotten a kill shot off, as they were typically off balance / falling and \"point shooting\" at best.

I've yet to do any close range tactical firearms training (hopefully December) but it looks to me after watching that, and other similar videos, that at close range, it's imperative to defened first, try to either cause some damage or make some distance, and then present your weapon.

[Anonymous]

Well, yeah, that makes sense, if the gun is still in the holster. I thought maybe in that experiment the gun was already pointed at the knife man as he was coming forward.

That's the problem with relying on a concealed weapon for self-defense purposes - it would take a while to get out and if the threat is immediate there may not be time and one may need to use an empty hand defense first.

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Giantkiller

[CLFMak]

I wasn't really aware of the controlling the knife hand in Krav- as I said, my experience was one seminar. It must have been de emphasized for simplicity and because Eyal had us doing multile opponent drills- hard to control two knife wielders at once.

That's the problem with relying on a concealed weapon for self-defense purposes - it would take a while to get out and if the threat is immediate there may not be time and one may need to use an empty hand defense first.

A lot of knife makers are taking note of this and making their knives either easier and faster to draw and orient, or make good impact weapons when closed (like a Kubaton). The Cold Steel 6 in Ti Lite is a good example- when closed, its an ideal impact weapon, and it can be opened by levering a quillion against something (this idea is catching on fast, I believe Emmerson started it) so you can open it as its leaving your pocket. Compare the modern easy open pocket clip knives with a classic Buck knives- both good, but one not a good weapon for immediate violence. There's a short video clip on their website I couldn't link directly to that shows these things and its use as an impact weapon:
http://www.coldsteel.com/tilites.html#
It's about halfway down the page.

[Anonymous]

But even with that, you would still have to reach into your pocket to get it out, which may not be possible in some situations. For example, if the attacker's knife is already coming toward you, you may only have time for a quick block and counter, then, maybe, if you are able to make distance, you could try to draw your own weapon.

Same if a person suddenly points a gun at you. If you reach into your pocket, he may shoot you, so you would have to defend first, then, if possible and necessary, you could reach for your hidden weapon.

The most useful type of weapon for those situations might be one that you are already carrying, as opposed to having it hidden inside your pocket/holster/bag. Maybe one of those key chain weapons, or a cane (if you are using one), or those knife shoes you provided a link to some time ago.

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Giantkiller

[Anonymous]

Okay, I watched the youtube video. I like the stick fighting. We used to do something similar (although more carefully) in that one LV5 class we used to have. Even if you work on stick vs stick exercises before sparring in that manner, it is still much harder to make the defenses and counters work when a guy is actually trying to hit you from all angles. So, it's good to practice like that, also for knife fighting.

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Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

FWIW,you guys seem to be only getting part of what the video is about.The video is about the transitions from point of attack.Meaning many gun guys feel the gun is the answer to the knife,if I'm attacked by a knife guy,I'll just pull my gun.Never bring a knife to a gun fight.What your seeing is a myth destroyed as they can't access the weapon for the most part in time.How do you access any weapon when attacked is a big part of their exploration on the DIe less often video. hope that helps
mike
P.S.Giantkiller,you live close enough to it,Go watch the Gathering of the pack next month its a true eye opening expirience

[CLFMak]

I think that was explicit in the beginning when Imelda Marcos is attacked and they make it a point to emphasize the man with the gun a few feet away (Filipino secret service, I'd imagine). Also, when Gabe Suarez points out that at close range, the knife is the more lethal weapon.

[Anonymous]

Where do they gather?

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Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

Gathering of the pack is Nov.19 at 11am at Raw gym in El Segundo,cost is 10 to watch.Dog Brothers web site has all the particulars,of course you could sign up to fight :twisted: there is video of a gathering on the site as well.hope that helps
mike

[Anonymous]

Okay, maybe I should check it out. If it's in El Segundo, maybe captain Mitch will be there.

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Giantkiller

[unstpabl1]

maybe we'll see you there.
mike

[CLFMak]

Maybe I'll even go if I can get someone to drive up from San Diego with me.

unstpabl1, are you affiliate with the Dog Brothers? Do you know if any of them competed at the Cold Steel Challenge?

[unstpabl1]

CLFMAk,You should come up and make a day of it.I went to a gathering a long time ago and they blew my mind.I am in no way affiliated with Dog Brothers Martial arts,but I've been on Warriortalk for years and I know a bunch of the guys who compete in it.I'm really working to clear my schedule to make it this year.As far As the question about the Cold Steel Challange,you might ask on the Dog Bros. forum as Marc is very accessable.I trained abit with Felix Valencia who trained the owner of Cold Steel.If You don't get an answer,let me know,and I'll get it for you.
Mike

[CLFMak]

In the old Warrior's Edge series, there were a couple of videos of Felix Valencia knife sparring with Lynn Thompson (the Cold Steel owner). Felix was also the training partner during the videos. I figured some Dog Brother would show up at the Cold Steel event because its simlar to what they do (sparring with kali headgear and hockey gloves), its in the same area, and you could win some awesome stuff. I was going to compete, but couldn't find any training partners for the few months ahead of time and hadn't done any sparring like that in a long time, so I didn't feel up to par.

[Anonymous]

Hey unstpabl1,

Are you one of the guys who come to Mitch's early class sometimes?

This sounds like fun. So, you'll be able to see different matches with different weapons? I'll have some surgery on Monday :( , so I may not be able to come and train for a while, but maybe I could still make it over. Also Nov 19th is still some time away, maybe it's okay by then.

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Giantkiller

[dallasvideo]

Video shows knife defenses of Krav vs. 3 other arts.
http://www.comparestyles.com/combatant.wmv