good video on gun defense and what happens when you grab the barrel

[leejam99]

there has been many discussions and questions about what happens to your hand when your grabbing the gun and the gun fires.

I just found this video and the picture is worth a thousand.. you know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QLaW...n-defense.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qgy...n-defense.html

If this was posted before... opps.

[TigerUpperCut]

I had not seen this video yet. Thanks for the post. It works just like I thought it would. Reverse slide bite.

[Dirty_Harry]

The video wasn't too clear on my work connection. Was the blokes hand injured? Does any burning occur when holding the barrel as the weapon fires?

This has been something I have been keen to find out for a while.

[Kirk]

Awesome!

[leejam99]

to me it was clear that nothing happen to his hand. he didn't even flinch.

[TigerUpperCut]

True, that guy didn't flinch. I have to wonder how many times he might have done this before. I think for most people the fear of the pain, heat or just the sound is worse then the actual event would be. That said I wouldn't want to show anybody new this video and say: "There see no big deal, just grab the gun and nothing bad will happen."

Having never actually had to use the gun defense in a real live situation I always to told myself it is going to hurt and am going to use that pain to hold on to the gun tighter hit that person even harder.

[oscarmike]

The sound and having the slide pinch my skin would anger me more. I would have to shoot the person after it's all said and done. Just a kneecap... for my troubles.

[AviatorDave]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry

The video wasn't too clear on my work connection. Was the blokes hand injured? Does any burning occur when holding the barrel as the weapon fires?

This has been something I have been keen to find out for a while.

Not where he grabbed it. If he were to have grabbed it very close to the front sight, it might have torn a gash out of his palm as the slide recoils. And he's not really holding the barrel, the barrel is inside the part he grabbed, which is the slide. It won't get hot from a single shot, nor even an entire magazine.

But another thing to notice from that video - after it's fired, do you see how the slide hasn't fully returned forward? You can tell because you can see part of the barrel sticking out of the end of the slide. The gun won't fire again until the slide is released. So as long as you don't let go of it after it's fired once, you don't have to worry about it firing a second tme.

A revolver is a different story. If you grab one from the top across the gap between the cylinder and barrel, there's enough escaping blast up near the barrel to blow fingers off.

[OMFGnoogies]

Originally Posted by AviatorDave

Not where he grabbed it. If he were to have grabbed it very close to the front sight, it might have torn a gash out of his palm as the slide recoils. And he's not really holding the barrel, the barrel is inside the part he grabbed, which is the slide. It won't get hot from a single shot, nor even an entire magazine.

But another thing to notice from that video - after it's fired, do you see how the slide hasn't fully returned forward? You can tell because you can see part of the barrel sticking out of the end of the slide. The gun won't fire again until the slide is released. So as long as you don't let go of it after it's fired once, you don't have to worry about it firing a second tme.

I think by blocking the chamber he prevented the shell from escaping. So he basically has a dead round in the chamber and has to physically pull the slide back to eject the casing before the gun can actually be used again.

[Chocolate Soldier]

Yes - basically a jam would quite likely be induced in a semi-automatic if someone fires a round during a KM gun disarm while the slide is being held - since the slide doesn't go back, the shell fails to eject & a new round isn't stripped from the magazine and chambered.

So the gun would be in a failure mode until racked again...

Fwiw - I asked someone who underwent the same type of live fire drill depicted in the first clip and they told me it was no problem at all to be gripping the slide when the gun was fired...

[AviatorDave]

Excellent observation. And it also may have in fact jammed the gun in a way that will require a lot more than just pulling back the slide.

Sometimes when you get a FTE (either failure to extract or failure to eject, as looks to be the case here), when the slide comes forward to strip the next round from the magazine, it doesn't have anywhere to go and ends up being pushed only halfway out of the magazine.

So you can't even pull the slide back to clear the jam. First you have to pull the magazine out, and it will take a lot more force to remove it than normal. I've had it happen on both Glocks and HKs, so it's probably the same on every handgun. You have to really grab and rip the magazine out of the mag well, then rack the slide and let the jammed rounds fall out the magazine well, then go back to the Tap-Rack-Bang procedure.

So cause a failure to eject may be very effective at neutralizing a handgun.

[Jeremy Stafford]

Originally Posted by AviatorDave

Excellent observation. And it also may have in fact jammed the gun in a way that will require a lot more than just pulling back the slide.

Sometimes when you get a FTE (either failure to extract or failure to eject, as looks to be the case here), when the slide comes forward to strip the next round from the magazine, it doesn't have anywhere to go and ends up being pushed only halfway out of the magazine.

So you can't even pull the slide back to clear the jam. First you have to pull the magazine out, and it will take a lot more force to remove it than normal. I've had it happen on both Glocks and HKs, so it's probably the same on every handgun. You have to really grab and rip the magazine out of the mag well, then rack the slide and let the jammed rounds fall out the magazine well, then go back to the Tap-Rack-Bang procedure.

So cause a failure to eject may be very effective at neutralizing a handgun.

This is a great discussion. But Dave, its not the same with every handgun. With the Glock, it is generally taught that you should rip the magazine out prior to cycling the slide (as it saves a step) during the feedway stoppage malfunction clearance. However, with all of the other pistol systems that I've trained on (Beretta, 1911, Sig, HK), the Manufacturer training teams that come out to provide "train the trainer" training have taught that the slide should be locked back, then the magazine removed. Locking the slide back prior to magazine removal takes the pressure off of the magazine and allows it to come out easily. All that being said, if you are able to get a good grasp of the magazine, and are fairly strong, you should be able to "rip" the mag out without locking the slide. It just won't work for everyone.

[AviatorDave]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Stafford

This is a great discussion. But Dave, its not the same with every handgun. With the Glock, it is generally taught that you should rip the magazine out prior to cycling the slide (as it saves a step) during the feedway stoppage malfunction clearance. However, with all of the other pistol systems that I've trained on (Beretta, 1911, Sig, HK), the Manufacturer training teams that come out to provide "train the trainer" training have taught that the slide should be locked back, then the magazine removed. Locking the slide back prior to magazine removal takes the pressure off of the magazine and allows it to come out easily. All that being said, if you are able to get a good grasp of the magazine, and are fairly strong, you should be able to "rip" the mag out without locking the slide. It just won't work for everyone.

Correct, I'm sure it's not the same on all handguns. I'll have to try some of my other handguns to see which ones do it, but I know with the the P7M13 I normally carry (and other P7 variants), it's impossible to pull the slide back any further. I don't own any Glocks, I've only used them in training, but I don't remember being able to clear it only by pulling back on the slide, the magazine had to come out first. It's one of the things we've trained for by intentionally inducing the failure. Ripping the magazine out is the only fast way to clear it.

I guess you might be able to clear it by pulling back on the slide, turning it upside down and shaking the hell out of it, but that obviously isn't going to work if someone is standing there beating on you.

(Aside: it was one of the drills in an MP5 operators course I took - we randomly loaded snap caps or empty cases into both our MP5 mags and our sidearm mags. The idea was that when your MP5 stops, immediately switch to your sidearm to get back into the fight, and worry about getting the MP5 back up and running when you had a chance. Invariably, everybody would eventually end up with a jammed MP5 and a jammed pistol at the same time. Fun times. But I digress...)

Whatever the case, if you can induce a FTE in an attacker's handgun by grabbing and covering the ejection port, you have bought youself a lot of time to counter attack and he's now holding nothing more than a blunt force weapon in his hand.

[Jeremy Stafford]

The P7 is a whole different thing....Do they even make those anymore?MP5 transition drills brings back fond Quantico memories......

[AviatorDave]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Stafford

The P7 is a whole different thing....Do they even make those anymore?MP5 transition drills brings back fond Quantico memories......

Nope, they quit making them about 2 years ago, everything is polymer now.

[Chocolate Soldier]

Here's another utoob clip from featuring the live fire slide holding drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mme4J309D8

Once again - seems relatively harmless with no problems
like scorching or digits blown off..

The only 'risk' IMO of holding a semi-automatic in that way would be for
a catastrophic failure to occur such as a cartridge blocking the barrel when another round was fired - but you'd think there'd be one in 10 billion chance of that happening just as someone's performing a KM gun disarm...

For those who might not used to the workings of a semi-automatic - like the members from the UK where handguns are banned (but where, strangely, criminals can still easily obtain them) - this slow motion clip shows the firing / slide / shell eject / new round stripping action very well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmzIS8ianCA

[Chocolate Soldier]

Some great animations of how a semi-automatic works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0-vfb6c7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKRMcTlbWTs

[AviatorDave]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Soldier

The only 'risk' IMO of holding a semi-automatic in that way would be for
a catastrophic failure to occur such as a cartridge blocking the barrel when another round was fired - but you'd think there'd be one in 10 billion chance of that happening just as someone's performing a KM gun disarm...

And even that is not much of a problem. A blocked handgun barrel doesn't normally cause a catastrophic failure. Most quality handguns will push a lodged bullet right out the end of the barrel, with usually just a bulge where the blocked one was. Catastrophic failures are usually caused by overcharged handloads, or other mechanical failures that allow out of battery firings.

But this is a great thread, I've been shooting rifles, shotguns, and pistols since I was a little kid, and if someone would have asked me, I would have been sure you'd get severly burned holding a bare hand over an ejection port.

I don't know how or even if the disarm techniques differ for a revolver, but bad things can happen if you did the same thing with a revolver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUiRoggh2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3RO3Lr4fM

Mythbusters did a similar test using a "hand" made from chicken bones and skin, and it blew right threw the bones. I saw the pictures that prompted the story, and I was sure it was fake. Not any more.

[F-Factory]

Originally Posted by AviatorDave

I don't know how or even if the disarm techniques differ for a revolver, but bad things can happen if you did the same thing with a revolver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUiRoggh2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3RO3Lr4fM

Mythbusters did a similar test using a "hand" made from chicken bones and skin, and it blew right threw the bones. I saw the pictures that prompted the story, and I was sure it was fake. Not any more.

Hi,

a colleague (Instructor) of mine did a test were he wrapped a revolver with several layers of firm bandage were the hand would grab, to simulate a hand. The result was that the bandage was ripped apart by the gas eminating from the revolver when fired, even where it was not tightly wrapped.
If you grab a revolver with the shown technique be prepared to receive serious burns and damage to your hand...

Then again, gun techniques are for extreme situations, after all...

Regards
John.

[michaelmall]

The hot dog video seems odd,I have shot revolvers
for a long time and have never seen this before.

[Jrodf4]

In a real life situation you are not gonna worry about the barrel being to hot or getting pinched.

Most likely you will have a bad guy pulling,punchin,kicking and shooting while you are fighting for your life......

Be safe & god bless....

[Gregg]

I wouldn't advice any of my student to use a gun they would have taken from an opponent. these are some reasons:

• If you're not trained to use a firearm, there's no way a youtube video gonna teach you to, even basically.
• You don't know if the gun is well maintained
• You don't know if it's not a blank pistol (wich really looks like veen if you tap rack it)
• You don't know if it an airsoft gun (the same)
• You may not know how to use it (safety catches, magazine realeases, etc)

I would only teach this:

• Use it a blunt objet (heavy, sharp, ergonomic) untill your opponent is REALLY out of duty.
• When you're safe, call IMMEDIATLY the police, advicing them you are in possession of a firearm taken from an agressor
• Pointing the barrel downward press any button you find near the trigger guard untill the clip drops
• Still pointing the floor, rack the slide back at least 3 times
• Wait for the cops with the barrel down and holding the gun BY THE SLIDE or put it in a secure container (car trunk, locker, etc)

However, if the **** really hits the fan and after taking this gun you realize you've got to return some firepower and there's no way you could flee or acces your own weapon, this is what I would advice to a at least basically TRAINED shooter who KNOWS the gun model:

• Take cover from the shootings with the taken pistol
• Realease the clip and rack the slide 3 times
• Visually check the first round in the clip (blank, airsoft, etc)
• Insert the clip and rack the pistol
• Check safety's
• Return fire

[Chocolate Soldier]

Originally Posted by Gregg

However, if the **** really hits the fan and after taking this gun you realize you've got to return some firepower and there's no way you could flee or acces your own weapon, this is what I would advice to a at least basically TRAINED shooter who KNOWS the gun model:

• Take cover from the shootings with the taken pistol
• Realease the clip and rack the slide 3 times
• Visually check the first round in the clip (blank, airsoft, etc)
• Insert the clip and rack the pistol
• Check safety's
• Return fire

Fwiw the vast majority of (non military) 'gun fights' and shooting incidents are over within a few seconds eg: 2-3. Its all about solving problems under time pressure.

If you've removed the clip & racked the slide 3 times on a genuine semi automatic with a chambered round there won't be any round left to check as it would have gone sailing off into the cosmos with racking movement #1

If it were me having just performed a disarm in something like the above scenario, I'd like to think I'd create some distance & while doing that: tap the mag, check for brass, rack if needed & immediately get in the game...or flee in a zig zag / seek cover.

Even if the BG no longer appeared to pose a threat, there's no way I'd unload or otherwise disable the weapon...

[Gregg]

Originally Posted by Chocolate Soldier

Fwiw the vast majority of (non military) 'gun fights' and shooting incidents are over within a few seconds eg: 2-3. Its all about solving problems under time pressure.

I didn't knew about that, anyway if you pop up and try to shoot a non fire gun, you probably gonna get shot for that. If you have a good cover, you could survive the few seconds needed for the do the procedure

Originally Posted by Chocolate Soldier

If you've removed the clip & racked the slide 3 times on a genuine semi automatic with a chambered round there won't be any round left to check as it would have gone sailing off into the cosmos with racking movement #1

This manoeuver is actually to check that the slide is working properly as it could be stuck with a lot if things. You can chek the top round in the clip.

Originally Posted by Chocolate Soldier

If it were me having just performed a disarm in something like the above scenario, I'd like to think I'd create some distance & while doing that: tap the mag, check for brass, rack if needed & immediately get in the game...or flee in a zig zag / seek cover.

Of course, if I can make some distance, I won't even shoot back, i'll just flee. ****s happen anyway...

Originally Posted by Chocolate Soldier

Even if the BG no longer appeared to pose a threat, there's no way I'd unload or otherwise disable the weapon....

According to me it's just a pesonnal feeling. I'm never carrying a gun when out of duty and I know how much people have been shot by "safe weapons" or police officier getting jumpy by seeing an armed man on the street.

Anyway, all of this is just simple theory, when you're in a fight, you're in a fight and it's dirty...

[Chocolate Soldier]

Originally Posted by Gregg

According to me it's just a pesonnal feeling. I'm never carrying a gun when out of duty and I know how much people have been shot by "safe weapons" or police officier getting jumpy by seeing an armed man on the street.

Anyway, all of this is just simple theory, when you're in a fight, you're in a fight and it's dirty...

Following the Jeff Cooper safety rules add quite a few layers of defense against negligent discharge & unpleasant results from a ND. Finger off the trigger is a big one as guns just don't 'go off' by themselves except in extremely rare cases involving mechanical defect.

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I:ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper

[Gregg]

Hi Chocolate soldier. I guess everybody who has been even basically trained in shooting has gone trough these Jeff Cooper's rules. In absolute theory, a gun won't go bang unexpectedly if they are followed.

However, i've no idea of how much people, even trained, have shot themselves or other people by accidents with firearms carried in a too casual or too jumpy manner. I cannot really talk 'bout US, but here in Belgium, a police officer WILL be jumpy if he spots you holding a gun in you hand unless you hold it in the casualest way possible (By the slide, pointing downward ie).

Anyway you made me realize that I forgot to cover two important points in the scenario where you've taken the gun, ran to safety, called the police and unloaded it.

Even if you've gone trough the unloading procedure, you still have to take care to point the barrel downward and keep your fingers off the trigger.

Anyway, as I've said, it's also a matter of personal opinions 'bout that. SURE it is the person holding the gun that kills and not the gun itself. BUT if this person has no gun, then it won't happen FOR SURE ;-)