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Old 05-12-2009, 11:56 PM   #1
Tony Palmer
 
Default Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Why are people being duped in upstate NY in the name of KM? And what if anything do you think should be done about it.

Hi, I would really like to know peoples thoughts on my situation and the situation of all the other people in upstate NY like me being duped in the name of KM.

My name is TONY PALMER. I live in Rochester NY. I started taking KM classes at the famous North Eastern regional training center for Krav Maga (NE RTC KM) in Buffalo NY around 2005. It was awesome.
For those who don't know upstate NY very well, Rochester and Buffalo are about an hour and half away from each other.

I remember my first KM test was pretty intense for me. The test was a four hour test, nonstop movement, a little over 3 hours into it, I got my tooth knocked loose because I could barley hold my arms up during an inside jab defense. Dude landed it straight to my face but it was all good, I kept going. Then I got sick. I had to run to the bathroom, do my thing quickly then quickly ran back to the mat to finish out the test. I honestly didn't think I was going to make it. The dude I was testing with was being a great partner though, encouraging me, you know saying things like: weíre almost there; hang in there; were doing good; were going to make it bro! Well I made it, I made up to level two and received my yellow certificate signed by some instructors of KM one being Darren L. and It was really cool and I was really proud. I still am. So far so good.
Some weeks into my level 2 training a friend of mine becomes really interested in attending KM classes and wants to come along with me. I being a good/stupid friend agreed to go with him to class (level 1) class. So, I'm going backwards a little but didn't mind because I understood the importance of a strong foundation. In addition we would car pool and it would only be a few months before he would have been level 2 anyway.

Bare with me.

So my buddy makes it to level 2 things are going great. We're in level 2 together and getting ready to test again. Anyway about a week before the test, I am involved in an auto accident and have to take some time off from KM.

My friend stopped going as well for whatever his reasons were.

So it was about a year later and I was ready to go back and I called all excited and they said I needed to come in and go through orientation class. I was like no no no, maybe you don't remember me but I'm level 2! Thatís my level and I'm ready to come back to class, but again he insisted I have to go thru an orientation class.
I was feeling like c'mon already put me in coach I want to play! I'm ready, letís do this. So I go, its dumb as hell but whatever I am eager to get back into Krav. Yea, I signed the dotted line.

I remember my first day back I get stuck getting partnered up with this girl who clearly didn't even want to be there. She was a smaller girl I did not want to be partnered up with her but he wouldnít switch us. So sheís holding a kick shield for front kicks I kick and she goes flying. NOW they switch me. Apparently and unannounced to me your now supposed to hold back SOME of the intensity. This was NOT something I was used too. Originally I was instructed not to hold back because my partner was a girl, that that would be doing her an injustice. An attacker on the street is not going to hold back his intensity and she would not have her kick shield there to protect her. I remember when I attended KM the 1st time around I was partnered up with plenty of girls in KM who probably could have kicked the **** out of me. (Not probably, for sure, but you know ego and all, so Iím going to say probably.) Love all you KM girls. Sorry Iím side tracking here...

Some weeks into it I'm now realizing things aren't really cool anymore. I mean itís not KM anymore. Again and again I'm left standing there like wtf!
Only very little bits of KM were being taught. KM there was and still is now crossed with kickboxing knees and elbows but not as finishing moves but whole classes of kickboxing type stuff. Noticeably, obviously and nowhere near the level of intensity that it once was when I was being taught originally.

Really though different is an understatement. In addition to the total wtf is going on around here KM of buffalo is now a belt system and a $hit load of belts in there system and with stripes!!
Now basically all you have to do to go up levels is attend and every month you get a stripe or actually a piece of electrical tape wrapped around your belt after three stripes you test, (1hour) and poof you go up a belt, which BTW you have to pay extra for. NO MORE 4 hour tests; NO MORE CERTIFICATE; NO MORE RECOGNITION by the rest of the KM world uh hello people in Buffalo hope your listening. (Donít believe me? ask where your certificate in KM is; ask what level you would be if you attend KM in LA) Anybody can pass these tests too, if you are obese or out of shape or just plain suck you simply are not held to a higher standard and you pass just for that reason!! Supposedly...The OG's were expected to perform to a higher standard and everyone else passes for the hell of it IDK?? I never understood that, Not only that but WTF really, one person tests with true KM intensity and they pass and another person does it with total weakness and very little effort and they pass as well.
If youíre wondering why I stayed so long after I realized I was not going to be certified any longer. Here are the reasons: One, He WAAS certified to teach KM levels 1, 2 & 3. Two, respect I had for my teacher. Three, hope and faith that things were going to go back to normal someday. lastly, I am the committed type (driving hour+ there an hour+ back 3x a week paying my dues buying all the KM gear and my gas was $240.00 a month thatís commitment) and yet I still thought to myself I can train hard if I partner up with the right people. Also, I love KM. I remember seeing it on a talk show in the early 90's. I was watching the guy do gun defenses; dude was sitting in a chair with a gun to his head, and with explosiveness disarmed the dude and right then and there I knew. I was like wow if I ever were to take a Martial Art thatís the one I want to do!!!

Anyway, I stayed with it for awhile longer roughly two more years longer. Waiting for things to go back to KM curriculum (which btw they donít even use a KM curriculum booklet anymore but I still have mine) and on top off all the time I already had prior being that I was officially level two yellow and able to have tested for level two orange and stayed with it two more years in "his version" of KM. After all that I finally left. I left at a red/brown belt do you know what that means in KM Well neither do I... BUT... if I had to guess or go to any other "real" KM school I think it means Iím only level 2 yellow. All that time, all that driving all those months, all the gas, thru rain thru snow, all the comitment all that money and for what? A red/brown belt!??

Now itís May 2009. Itís about a year since I left and once again I'm craving KM. So I go to Kravmaga.com hit locations near me and low and behold thereís the school I just left claiming still, to be Krav Maga and not only Krav Maga but the NE regional training center for Krav Maga!!
How can this be? my fellow KM comrades... how the F can a school say that NOT ONLY are they KM but the North Eastern ~hello~ REGINOAL TRAINING CENTER!!! And NOT certify and NOT recognize and NOT go by curriculum? How can this be? Does anybody at all care what is happing to the integrity of KM in upstate NY? What if you moved to upstate NY? Would you care then? People are being mislead and lured into this school in KM's name. Go to www.kravmaga.com go to locations click on NY locations and it directs me to the school in buffalo. The NE RTC? Why say this to me and everyone else in upstate NY.

Do you realize that the people going there have noooooooo clue that they would not be recognized in LA but yet the KM website says that thatís the place to go if in upstate NY if you want to train in KM.
Not Cool & Not true unless of course you don't mind being cheated from how KM is really supposed to be taught.
If you love, really love KM and know KM and the high you get from the accomplishments and the intensity that is KM, THEN PLEASE PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES and you will feel the pain I feel and the frustration for that matter.
And again these poor saps at the buffalo school donít even realize they are being manipulated and taken for their money in KM's name. Paying premium prices to take KM and they will never ever be recognized by Krav Maga worldwide.

As far as kravmaga.com telling me and everyone else in upstate NY that Buffalo is NE RTC for KM is like:

Contacting Dolce and Gabbanna directly for an item you want to purchase and they send you to a store they claim is "there" official "NE REGIONAL" D&G store and you pay full price for something but yet go home with a knock-off that holds no value to the rest of the world.


Thanks a lot guys for pointing all of upstate NY in that direction!!


I wanted to train KM not MMA based on KM and Muay Thai and whatever other watered down techniques people felt like throwing into the KM curriculum. Am I not entitled to be proud of the fact that I wanted pure KM? I wanted the 4 to 6 hour tests, certification of my accomplishment that mean so much to me and everyone else who passes a real test. If I want to train KM should I not be able to be proud of those real KM accomplishments. Is this wrong of me? I love KM, I have nowhere to train KM in upstate NY why direct me to this school in Buffalo NY for KM if after going there you would not accept me at yours. ( That is to say without starting me or anyone else from the Buffalo school from scratch )

My fear, is that no one is EVER going to open up a real KM school in or around upstate NY because www.kravmaga.com says there already is one and itís the NE RTC.
My hope however, is someday someone will open up a real KM school in upstate NY and I'm willing to travel 1.5 hours to a real school in any direction from my location.
A school where I and others can once again be certified in the system we sought to train in.

Sincerely, Frustrated.
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Old 05-13-2009, 06:40 AM   #2
rd672
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

It use to be NE Training ctr when I first started in the 90's,then something happened.Best of luck talk to Mr Spoth
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:46 AM   #3
markx3
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

After a few paragraphs of that marathon novel I almost fell asleep so I had to stop. Images of the old lady in Airplane hanging herself after listening to Ted Striker’s love saga came to mind.
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Besides this post, have you taken your concerns to those responsible for certifying locations and RTC's? Seems like that might make sense.
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:31 AM   #5
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelaw1 View Post
Besides this post, have you taken your concerns to those responsible for certifying locations and RTC's? Seems like that might make sense.
Yes, I'm in the process now. I have spoke to a couple of folks already who have directed me to the apropriate people in charge of licensing.

I just wanted to post something up for people who may be considerig Krav Maga in or around the Buffalo area.

Imagine, you wanting to train in KM and you go to this school ( and there very good at getting you to sign a contract) but you will never be certified in the style you sought to train in or that they were advertising. They do not make that verably clear when going thru orientation class. Its all about the $$$.

That's what this about and I got no problem putting my name or my face out there reguarding any situation.
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:36 AM   #6
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by markx3 View Post
After a few paragraphs of that marathon novel I almost fell asleep so I had to stop. Images of the old lady in Airplane hanging herself after listening to Ted Strikerís love saga came to mind.
LOL, Sorry it's so long, but... IT IS WHAT IT IS... and it may not apply to 99% of anyone who is reading this...but... it does and should matter to ANYONE in or around upstate NY who is considering KM. Don't you think?
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:39 AM   #7
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by rd672 View Post
It use to be NE Training ctr when I first started in the 90's,then something happened.Best of luck talk to Mr Spoth
Talking to Mr. Spoth would be futile.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:54 AM   #8
Kirsten
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Wow, long post... The regionals were picked for location to ease the traveling requirements for certification of new instructors. It does not make them the creme de la creme of Krav Maga schools, you still have to check them out. I have no personal experience with them or met the instructors there, but I do hope that you have been talking to them first about these issues prior to this post. I have no advice, as you sounded like you just needed to vent. There are several other training centers in NY but I am not familiar with their proximity to you, perhaps one of them may work better for you... I hope things workout for you soon as you sound very passionate about Krav Maga.
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Old 05-13-2009, 12:41 PM   #9
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
Wow, long post... The regionals were picked for location to ease the traveling requirements for certification of new instructors. It does not make them the creme de la creme of Krav Maga schools, you still have to check them out. I have no personal experience with them or met the instructors there, but I do hope that you have been talking to them first about these issues prior to this post. I have no advice, as you sounded like you just needed to vent. There are several other training centers in NY but I am not familiar with their proximity to you, perhaps one of them may work better for you... I hope things workout for you soon as you sound very passionate about Krav Maga.
Thank you Kristen I appreciate that! Yes, I have tried talking with the guy in charge over there. So have many others. Most of the original students (that is to say the students that were there before the switch over) are no longer there. You can find other people on KM forums who have posted similar complaints. I don't want to bash him on a personal level. He has do what he has to do to make that bottom dollar. However, I would respect it more if he were to say "we are a martial art school based on KM and other mixed martial arts and not purely KM." Please understand, I attended his school for many months threw out the past few years. I know first hand how KM should be taught; how he originally taught; and how it is being taught now. I know if an experienced instructor were to sit in on his classes everyday for a week they would not be impressed.

He's a good guy and it is a nice school but if you were to go to his school with the intention of training KM and wanted to be recognized by other real KM schools for your time in and your efforts there...It's never going to happen. They are not certifying there students in KM any longer and haven't been for years. I mean really is KM a belt system now? They claim they are a blackbelt school now. That means the people they are receiving BlackBelts from him... as they go up threw his belt levels and not from KM 1, 2 & 3.
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Hi Tony,

There are belt tests and belts go all the way to black belt (must be invited to test for black that I remember). Sorry to read you're having problems with your school.

I hope it all works out for you.
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

It reads as though he is testing people for blackbelts in KM. That must be done by the instructors at the National Training Center. Perhaps they are for another system or style in his school...
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:43 PM   #12
anthony
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

I have trained at the NERTC in 2002 with Steve Spoth. Actually for Phase A Certification. Also attended some knife defense and gun defense seminars being hosted by Steve. I found him to be an incredible instructor. At the time his school was also a Kung Fu Center. I can only give my opinion as to the type of school and individual he was when I trained with him. He was top notch. It appears he is offering upper level belt testing (to black) in a combined or mixed type of system other than KM. That is offered only by invitation in LA. That is his prerogative. But I agree with you if his school is a certified KM School, he should be following KM.

It's a shame you feel you are not getting the training you would like or are accustomed to. I have a suggestion that may or may not be in your best interest. That is to set up a school of your own outside of the NERTC location, go through the licensing for KM, and get your instructor certification. Sounds like a great business opportunity for someone who is as passionated about KM as you appear. Good Luck
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:38 AM   #13
rd672
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

As a school owner Krav Maga can be the flavor of the month,but doesn't bring $,Especially if you keep it real.Your best bet do your own thing.If you have a following and financial backing Good Luck.Find a happy medium and keep it real.It's called paying the rent
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:41 AM   #14
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
It reads as though he is testing people for blackbelts in KM. That must be done by the instructors at the National Training Center. Perhaps they are for another system or style in his school...

Here I would like you to be the judge...

http://www.thetrainingedge.com/krav.asp < claims training in KM ) *note the red belts (that would be what he calls "masters KM"
http://www.thetrainingedge.com/schedule.asp < (new 2009 scheduel)

At Mr. Spoths school in Buffalo "The Training Edge" there are 3 levels of KM. 1st level there is called "basic" 2nd is called "BBT (stands for) BlackBelt Training" 3rd level there they call "masters" in "masters" class is where you will eventually receive a Blackbelt but it comes from him and NOT KM.

Seems a little deceiving? Does it not? How are new students who want to train KM supposed to know they are not receing real KM untill its too late and they commit themselfes to contact?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:49 AM   #15
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by rd672 View Post
As a school owner Krav Maga can be the flavor of the month,but doesn't bring $,Especially if you keep it real.Your best bet do your own thing.If you have a following and financial backing Good Luck.Find a happy medium and keep it real.It's called paying the rent

I agree that KM alone may not pay the "rent" as you put it in or around smaller cities as well as in say like LA, BUT.....That does not mean you should claim you are training KM, get people into your school based on that fact and then give them a BlackBelt that in turn, means nothing to the rest of KM worldwide.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:52 AM   #16
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

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Originally Posted by mara_jade View Post
Hi Tony,

There are belt tests and belts go all the way to black belt (must be invited to test for black that I remember). Sorry to read you're having problems with your school.

I hope it all works out for you.

Thanks.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:44 PM   #17
mara_jade
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Palmer View Post
means nothing to the rest of KM worldwide.
If it meant nothing to us, why would be posting to you? If you've gone to the right folks at NTC with this, then you've done what you can. If you haven't, PM the admin and he can point you in the right direction.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:07 PM   #18
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

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Originally Posted by mara_jade View Post
If it meant nothing to us, why would be posting to you?
Thank's for your support. Really. It's very nice of you. It makes me feel so nice to know that there are caring people out there like yourself....

~BUT~

I don't mean to imply that you or KM worldwide does not care about me personally. What I mean to say is all the belts given to the students taking KM at the NE RTC, Those belts don't mean anything to KMAA.

I received a red/brown belt in KM (just a couple ranks below blackbelt according to the NE RTC) in Buffalo. What does that mean at LA? ...absoultley nothing, It holds no value. To KMAA I am still only level two yellow.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:41 PM   #19
Kirsten
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Palmer View Post
Thank's for your support. Really. It's very nice of you. It makes me feel so nice to know that there are caring people out there like yourself....

~BUT~

I don't mean to imply that you or KM worldwide does not care about me personally. What I mean to say is all the belts given to the students taking KM at the NE RTC, Those belts don't mean anything to KMAA.

I received a red/brown belt in KM (just a couple ranks below blackbelt according to the NE RTC) in Buffalo. What does that mean at LA? ...absoultley nothing, It holds no value. To KMAA I am still only level two yellow.

Tony,

Yes the website does seem to say that this is a regional training center. This is being looked into...
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Primary mission: To mesh world class fighting and training methods with reality based self-defense in a fun, safe and proven effective method. Learn to strike, spar, grapple and train like a champion with Bas Rutten Systems. "Join the Dutch Revolution"!

Last edited by Kirsten; 05-14-2009 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

I appreciate the fact that things like this are looked at. I've been to schools in California and here in Kansas. In both cases I was inspired by the dedication and ability of the instructors.

We often hear about posers and wana-be's as well as those trying to capatalize onthe Krav Maga name, if there is a school that has certification, thereby displaying a seal of quality via KMWW, it can only be to the benefit of allthe other schools that allegations of this sort are investigated.

By this I am in no way saying these alegations are true, only that it is comforti g that there is recourse at a higher level if necessary.

Last edited by Freelancer; 05-14-2009 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 05-16-2009, 07:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Apparently, America's Best Defense Academies like to blend systems. There are three schools here in Massachusetts. This is how they describe their adult self-defense program.
Self-Defense
Americaís Best Defense is proud to be an exclusive provider of the most cutting edge Israeli self defense systems including Krav Maga and Haganah. Employed by the Israeli military and special forces, these systems are effective, practical, and easy to learn for people of all shapes, sizes, ages and levels of fitness. These systems coupled with our teaching methods will provide you with the confidence and knowledge to defend yourself in any situation.
They also bill themselves as a Black Belt Leadership Academy.
Our Mission:
Our mission is to build our students into Black Belt leaders, to make our students more successful in life through the practice of their Martial Arts, and to always influence them in a positive manner.
Seemingly, their business model is fine because they list four locations including Buffalo. However, I know that isn't the issue at hand.
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Old 05-17-2009, 11:24 PM   #22
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

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Originally Posted by STD1984 View Post
What is going on with the krav maga northeast regional training center, near Buffalo, NY? Several months ago they stopped offering regular krav maga classes and now offer a real low budget sport-oriented \"kickboxing\" program. Are they still affiliated with the krav maga u.s. operations? most of the krav mag logos have been removed from their location and advertising and the instructors now speak to the students like martial arts \"grandmasters\" would. The classes have gotten way to basic, even for most of the newer students. They claim it is \"for the better\" but everyone seems to agree it is \"for the worse\"



:roll: :evil:
http://kmforum.kravmaga.com/showthre...=6011#post6011
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Hmm... the person that was looking into that is no longer with KMW so I do not know what happened, but I am sure that John did- as he took these issues very seriously. There is a committe I think that oversees licensees, but I do not know anything about it. Perhaps they are looking into it also. Please do not get frustrated, I am doing the best that I can to find answers... but I am just me and I am typically on the "FTD" side of things.

As soon as I know, you will know.
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www.BasRuttenSystems.com
Primary mission: To mesh world class fighting and training methods with reality based self-defense in a fun, safe and proven effective method. Learn to strike, spar, grapple and train like a champion with Bas Rutten Systems. "Join the Dutch Revolution"!
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:19 AM   #24
BradM
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Kristen,
If you have any luck in helping to resolve the problem in Buffalo, maybe you or whoever at KMW resolves it can look into the training in Orlando, FL. I totally understand Tony's frustrations and I hope you can help. Thanks for your efforts what ever the outcome is.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:41 PM   #25
saruotoko
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

You guys should reach out to Karla Nystrom at the Krav Maga Worldwide. She is responsible for affiliate licensing and she could sniff around, as this definitely sounds like it's in her sphere of influence.


Mario
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Dang, haven't seen you around here in a while Mario - you ever coming back to see Pete's new place? I think you'd be in love
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Old 05-18-2009, 08:18 PM   #27
Kirsten
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Jon is working on it. We have been talking about it some. Like I said, just give us some time... Jon is out of town right now but it is on his radar.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:05 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by mara_jade View Post
Dang, haven't seen you around here in a while Mario - you ever coming back to see Pete's new place? I think you'd be in love
Yeah, I know, Mara. Things have been somewhat nutty given that I've added a new avocation: I'm the photographer for our school now (you can see our stuff on Facebook) and much of my free time is now taken up by training and teaching at the school.

Gonna try to fix that, as I really enjoyed the forums. And YES, I will have to come to the new location. Near Northstar Mall, right?

Gonna try for some time in August. Will keep you posted!


Mario
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Nooo!! Don't do it, Mario ... Mara, don't tempt him to fall in love w/ a different center and leave us!!! ;)
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:44 AM   #30
Ken B.
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Tony,
Yes, Steve Spoth "Mr. Spoth" is quite a con man. I was one of his original 9 students who started with him just as he was first getting certified to teach originally. Just two weeks after signing on for the 3rd time for an extended 18 month contract and paying up front, he made drastic changes to the krav maga program. He did not tell me at the time of my contract signing of these upcoming changes. At times the new curriculum of his had little or nothing to do with Krav Maga, and he began wearing a Black belt to class and referring to himself as a black belt in Krav Maga, yet, he is only listed as a brown belt in the roster in LA. A phone call to the krav national training center at 1-800-kravmaga can verify this. This is deceptive business practices, lying to your clients when they outright ask you if you are a black or brown belt. When asked for a refund or even credit, Steve would not give me a credit or refund and only referred to as "this is for the best interests of all students". I left shortly afterwards, so I cannot see how this was in anyones best interests.
I agree with you 100% on what all of your message read. The old, and real Krav Maga at the training edge is long gone, replaced by a watered-down hybrid style with students that have no fighting spirit and cannot even hold a kicking shield/tombstone pad without it flying out of their hands when struck with full force. When new students sign up they are being duped into thinking they are taking Krav Maga, even though they are only getting a portion of it and definetly not at the quality level that it should be taught at.
Most of Steve's original team of instructors are long gone, most of them left on their own at the time of or shortly after these drastic changes. When a business or school has almost all of their staff up and leave at nealy the same time, it shows a pattern of internal problems. This morning, I noticed the Krav Maga NTC removed the Training Edge from their list of affiliated schools. Yes, Tony you are right, they should not let these deceptive practices continue and removing their name from the listing of "official" krav maga schools is long overdue. Only schools who meet the strict requirements of the NTC should be listed on this page, not any school that modifies their curriculum to the point where it should not have been called Krav Maga.

Ken B.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:55 AM   #31
Tony Palmer
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken B. View Post
Tony,
Yes, Steve Spoth "Mr. Spoth" is quite a con man. I was one of his original 9 students who started with him just as he was first getting certified to teach originally. Just two weeks after signing on for the 3rd time for an extended 18 month contract and paying up front, he made drastic changes to the krav maga program. He did not tell me at the time of my contract signing of these upcoming changes. At times the new curriculum of his had little or nothing to do with Krav Maga, and he began wearing a Black belt to class and referring to himself as a black belt in Krav Maga, yet, he is only listed as a brown belt in the roster in LA. A phone call to the krav national training center at 1-800-kravmaga can verify this. This is deceptive business practices, lying to your clients when they outright ask you if you are a black or brown belt. When asked for a refund or even credit, Steve would not give me a credit or refund and only referred to as "this is for the best interests of all students". I left shortly afterwards, so I cannot see how this was in anyones best interests.
I agree with you 100% on what all of your message read. The old, and real Krav Maga at the training edge is long gone, replaced by a watered-down hybrid style with students that have no fighting spirit and cannot even hold a kicking shield/tombstone pad without it flying out of their hands when struck with full force. When new students sign up they are being duped into thinking they are taking Krav Maga, even though they are only getting a portion of it and definetly not at the quality level that it should be taught at.
Most of Steve's original team of instructors are long gone, most of them left on their own at the time of or shortly after these drastic changes. When a business or school has almost all of their staff up and leave at nealy the same time, it shows a pattern of internal problems. This morning, I noticed the Krav Maga NTC removed the Training Edge from their list of affiliated schools. Yes, Tony you are right, they should not let these deceptive practices continue and removing their name from the listing of "official" krav maga schools is long overdue. Only schools who meet the strict requirements of the NTC should be listed on this page, not any school that modifies their curriculum to the point where it should not have been called Krav Maga.

Ken B.
Thats funny, I also heard that said.."It would be in the students best interests" It amazes me how many people were duped by that little lie, myself included.

You renew a contract thinking KM, then one day and literally overnight bam, your stuck there doing Tai Boxing!!?? THATS EFFED UP. I can't beleive (or actually I can) that you didn't get your money back from Steve. When that 1st day hit that Steve altered the KM system in BUffalo, all the renewed contracts should have been null and void.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:09 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

After reading all the posts in this thread, I cant decide whether TONY needs a tissue box more than he does a violin...its a tough choice

Before I go into my thoughts, I should tell everyone here that I go to the Training Edge, and Steve Spoth is my instructor. Anyone who's trained with him knows that he is a great instructor, and is also very impressive with his techniques.

I am also a good friend of Ken B (was that no fighting spirit a shot at me ??), so I dont want to discredit my friend in this whole matter, but here is my take-

We are trained in Krav Maga and we also learn Thai kickboxing as a compliment to the KM....whats wrong with that ?? Last time I checked, KM included elbows, kicks, and knees, so wouldnt they compliment each other fairly well ?? I see other KM schools also teach Muay Thai, so what Steve is doing isnt far out of the realm of what others are doing as well. TONY, does that make sense to you ??

We are also trained in HaganaH, another Israeli system founded by Mike Lee Kanarek, who is a former IDF soldier (he was in the Israeli Special Forces, but I dont know what his exact title was, so I wont guess at it, and be corrected later). I've been in boxing gyms all my life, and met and trained with many professional fighters, as well as being trained by professional trainers, and I've also trained in Kenpo and Ninjitsu, and let me tell you, Mike Lee Kanarek is one of the baddest dudes I've ever met, plain and simple !! Its an honor to be able to train and learn from someone who fought against Hezbollah, and has used his KM training in real life situations. Just for the record, Steve Spoth is a Black Belt in HaganaH, and I'm 100 percent sure that the testing for that Black Belt was just as hard, if not harder than the testing LA does for its Black belts.

I have nothing against LA, or the rules that they make out there (if I ever had the chance to meet Darren, I would definitely enjoy the opportunity), but lets be frank here....do you think that Eyal or Itay Gil believe that LA is the be all end all of KM, like TONY the tool believes ?? Nevermind the tissuebox and violin, just buy a plane ticket to Los Angeles.

About the KM that we learn at the Training Edge- its all the techniques that are in Darren's book (I have the book, and refer to it regularly), and the intensity of the classes is great. I like to think of myself as someone in pretty decent shape, between KM, Crossfit (a shoutout to the guy who got me hooked- Garddawg !!), and soccer, the workouts we do knock the **** out of me !!

One last word for TONY, if you ever decide to come back, I'll personally hold the pads for you
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:21 PM   #33
Ken B.
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Vinni,
Believe me, that was no personal shot at you about holding the pads. You are probably one of the only few there with a real warrior spirit.


Ken B.
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Old 05-31-2009, 03:00 AM   #34
J Wo Man
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Originally Posted by Vinman
After reading all the posts in this thread, I cant decide whether TONY needs a tissue box more than he does a violin...its a tough choice

Before I go into my thoughts, I should tell everyone here that I go to the Training Edge, and Steve Spoth is my instructor. Anyone who's trained with him knows that he is a great instructor, and is also very impressive with his techniques.

I am also a good friend of Ken B (was that no fighting spirit a shot at me ??), so I dont want to discredit my friend in this whole matter, but here is my take-

We are trained in Krav Maga and we also learn Thai kickboxing as a compliment to the KM....whats wrong with that ?? Last time I checked, KM included elbows, kicks, and knees, so wouldnt they compliment each other fairly well ?? I see other KM schools also teach Muay Thai, so what Steve is doing isnt far out of the realm of what others are doing as well. TONY, does that make sense to you ??

We are also trained in HaganaH, another Israeli system founded by Mike Lee Kanarek, who is a former IDF soldier (he was in the Israeli Special Forces, but I dont know what his exact title was, so I wont guess at it, and be corrected later). I've been in boxing gyms all my life, and met and trained with many professional fighters, as well as being trained by professional trainers, and I've also trained in Kenpo and Ninjitsu, and let me tell you, Mike Lee Kanarek is one of the baddest dudes I've ever met, plain and simple !! Its an honor to be able to train and learn from someone who fought against Hezbollah, and has used his KM training in real life situations. Just for the record, Steve Spoth is a Black Belt in HaganaH, and I'm 100 percent sure that the testing for that Black Belt was just as hard, if not harder than the testing LA does for its Black belts.

I have nothing against LA, or the rules that they make out there (if I ever had the chance to meet Darren, I would definitely enjoy the opportunity), but lets be frank here....do you think that Eyal or Itay Gil believe that LA is the be all end all of KM, like TONY the tool believes ?? Nevermind the tissuebox and violin, just buy a plane ticket to Los Angeles.

About the KM that we learn at the Training Edge- its all the techniques that are in Darren's book (I have the book, and refer to it regularly), and the intensity of the classes is great. I like to think of myself as someone in pretty decent shape, between KM, Crossfit (a shoutout to the guy who got me hooked- Garddawg !!), and soccer, the workouts we do knock the **** out of me !!

One last word for TONY, if you ever decide to come back, I'll personally hold the pads for you


After reading all of the posts on this thread, I felt the need to say a few things!! First of all, I want to say, Tony.....Everything you have said is 100% accurate in regards to the Training Edge and the way Krav Maga is being taught. Props to you bro!! I was a student there for over 6 years, and over those 6 years there has been MANY changes. Not only has the curriculum changed drastically and the intensity is non-existent, but the instructors over the last few years are a JOKE! What I mean by this is, Steve advances students quickly to an instructor level.... and the joke is they often teach the curriculum inaccurately. Probably because they have not been learning the techniques long enough nor with precision to be at a mastery level needed to teach. Nor have they gone through the gruling 6-8 hr intense non-stop testing where both your emotions and physical abilities get tested to the max. When you have students who often correct the instructor or crack jokes about the instructor in class...that in itself makes the school look bad! Tony...aint that the truth?
On top of that, it is reqired that all instructors there tie in a 5 min lecture near the end of class which often preaches about religion (not always directly, but is tied in in some way). Last time I checked, a martial arts school is not the place to preach religion, and is often very offensive to some people including myself. In addition, people that attend the Training Edge pay a pretty price for their tuition to learn the martial art, not to be a follower of Steve's religion. The class isn't half as bad as the amount of preaching that goes on in his CIT classes for the instructors. In my time and money spent at the Training Edge, I was falsefully led to believe that the Krav Maga curriculum was going to continue to be intense and even better than ever before....that's a huge joke. I challenge anyone to go visit this facility and see what a joke it really is. Check out the students who are in the upper belted classes that he calls masters, take a look at their belt and see the lack of intensity, poor technique etc that they perform at. Trust me, it's not their fault, it's just the way the watered down curriculum is, and like Tony said, 99.9% of the students pass their belt tests. All they have to do is show up! When I first started, if Steve yelled out a technique during the original 6 hr tests, you needed to know it and perform it with accuracy or you failed. That is the way it should be. If I wanted to learn a half a** martial arts system I would attend a local gym that has Joe Shmo teaching it.....it would only cost a quarter of what Steve charges....Get my point??
As for Vinny.....Really???....who is the tool here? It's a shame you took what Tony had to say as a personal attack on you and your manliness. You CLEARLY missed his point, probably because you were way too busy gloating about yourself and your background in Martial arts. I have seen you at the Edge.....your not the tough guy you claim to be. Not to mention, a true martial artist is HUMBLE and doesn't play the whose di** is larger contest....so chill out bro..."DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?" Have you asked Steve what your belt is in bro? Krav Maga? MMA? Maybe you should cause that's a joke too. With the experience you claim to have there is NO WAY if you were under good training by "real" blackbelt instructors and good schools would you continue to stay at the Edge...but it is very possible that you are brainwashed too. Good Luck to you bro! Tony hope all is well!!

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Old 05-31-2009, 07:24 AM   #35
rd672
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

wow
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:35 AM   #36
cmetalman
 
Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Take it outside after school... grow up!
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:10 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

Absolutely, what CJ's Dad said. Personal attacks do NOTHING. If the school isn't teaching KM as it should be taught, then by all means let folks know.
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This is Krav, not scrapbooking- Instructor Jeremy Stafford
Krav Air - We serve up NUTS
- San Antonio Center's Mock Airplane Motto
Disneyland, but more violent - SashaTheStrange explaining KM to a friend
Know who you are and what you're capable of. Walk away if you can. Run away if you must. Defend yourself if you have no other choice.- Instructor Steve Tornovish
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:14 PM   #38
Kirsten
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

I believe that the issue with the regional training center has been resolved. I uderstand the frustration on both sides, however what is done is now done. I do appreciate everyone's feedback about schools. We enjoying hearing the good more than the bad however, but KMW has many locations and they strive to ensure all certified instructors meet a specific criteria at the time of certification.

What they cannot do is go to each school and check up on them. Honestly I think they would not want to blur the line and say what is and what is not appropriate with regards to some of the issues mentioned, ie religion, prices... etc. How quality control is watched is through feedback from you guys. But when it digresses, people stop listening and your message gets lost and nobody benefits from either sides experiances.

For example, the woman teaching ballet at my health club has a religious outlook in her classes and teaching methods. Some people like it, others do not. I would imagine they would go elsewhere if it is offensive. Teaching it is a personal choice and not for me to say he can or cannot do that in his business.

But keep in mind "martial arts" in a traditional sense has a beginning steeped in religion. From Buddhism to Taoism, religion has played a role in a tradional system. It sounds as though this instructor has taken KM and combined it with his more traditonal systems. That being said Krav Maga is not a traditional system.

But to train with him is a personal choice. I believe that the goal has been achieved, which was to bring light to a problem with a regional training center and the quality of Krav Maga that is being taught...
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:36 AM   #39
Vinman
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

well, its nice to see that my post to some anonymous idiot, who thinks he knows me, gets deleted because I put a sparring challenge out there to him...nice job mods !!

I will only comment further on the "religious" message. I am Roman Catholic, and I think my instructor is Christian (I dont even really know, tbh), and I never got any "religious" messages out of his lectures, what he talks about most is self-belief and positive thinking. NEVER has God even been mentioned in any of the lectures.

I dont like ppl forcing their religion on me, either
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:36 AM   #40
Jeremy Stafford
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Default Re: Why call It NE regional Training center, Why call it KM at all??

A sparring challenge over the internet? You have got to be kidding me. That's the kind of nonsense that cheapens the entire KM Forum community. What's next? My Dad can beat up your Dad? You have just undermined every one of your previous posts. Credibility and respect on any internet forum are gained through thoughtful debate, clear articulation of position, and sound advice. Sparring challenges don't fit into any of those. The Mod did the right thing. Although, if it really bothers you, you could always show up to Sherman Oaks and issue a "sparing challenge" to him....
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