Training Under Stress

[KMMAN]

We did basic choke defenses under extreme stress with multiple attackers and a non compliant choker. I could not believe how many times I left the choke there, never plucked and went into combatives (or attempted to) with the choke still on.

One thing is that attacker, wearing groin protection is uneffected by the strike to the groin but, in reality this could very well happen with some crazed assaulter.

A definite learning experience to address the immediate threat (the choke).

[jaspthecat]

Out of interest, how did you replicate the stress?

[KMMAN]

One person in the middle of the circle....had to spin 5 times to get a bit disoriented. The people on the circle attacked (attackee had eyes shut) with either a front choke, side choke, or rear choke and the instruction to the attacker was not to let go of that choke hold no matter what. Once you got the attacker off, a new attacker came in.

I found the side choke the hardest to get off and like I said I often forgot to even address it. Even though they were real chokes.

[Kirsten]

I love to hear this because it really highlights the importance of this kind of training... What you are experiencing is very common for many students. The other thing we see is the opposite, the student forgets the combatives and just does the pluck...

Sounds like your turning into a "stress training" junkie! :-)

[DKatman]

I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.

And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn't realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn't begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won't just be ignored.

I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don't abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.

Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck....oh yeah...then kill.

:)

Dave

[Inky]

Just had my first taste of that last night, we split into groups of 4, 3 with tombstones and 1 in the middle with the lights out.
as we were tapped with the tombstones on either side or back we reacted with various elbow strikes. Wicked fun! can't wait to add that to my choke training.

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by DKatman

I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.

And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn't realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn't begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won't just be ignored.

I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don't abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.

Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck....oh yeah...then kill.

:)

Dave

Good point Dave. I glazed over the "no matter what" part... it's not realistic unless the defender gets to do "no matter what" to get you to stop... this is a reality based system, so the training has to be realistic.

I love all those drills!!

[KMMAN]

Let me clarify so we can give the instructor some props.....he did pick up on the fact that the attackers were unaffected (due to groin protection) and told everyone to somehow react in a realistic manner IF you are struck with a strike to the groin (remember, not everything hits).

This, of course, all after I went!

Truthfully, I can't be all that confident my groin strikes were strong so I need to work on it.

[TigerUpperCut]

There seems to always be a few people who on purpose or accident don't react when they are "hit" during drills. After a couple of reminders I generally tell the class if you're partner is not reacting when you stop then just don't stop one time... they will react.

Of course I don't want to see students to actually get hurt but I've had a few "tough guys" who flat out said they would not be stopped by one kick or one punch or one elbow right to the nose...so I put them with other tough guys like themselves and let them bang on eachother for a couple of classes...eventually it all works itself out.

Back to the origional topic I enjoy the stress drills very much. I also like having random attackers during pad work that will come up behind and bear hug, choke, knife slash whatever we are working on that night. Keeps people on there toes.

[rd672]

There is always a fine line on keeping it real and safety.

[TigerUpperCut]

Agreed, I don't try and run fight club (Palahniuk style) but I don't want somebody trying to train safely getting injured b/c there partner can't or won't control themselves. That behavior has to be stopped early or a bully mentality is either created or re-inforced and it effects the entire class.

[DKatman]

Tiger,

Good point and the exact point that has come up for us. The funny thing is it makes me think of one particular instructor who had prefaced the exercise telling the attackers to make it realistic then rolling his eyes and announcing to the class that if your attacker is not reacting at all to being struck to go ahead and glance them to the groin to remind them that they would react.

I have had a variety of partners. Many are fantastic. As you know each other more, you push each other more. But when it becomes a tough guy pissing contest, it can be hard to get away without giving it your all to get away.

Dave

[BradM]

Originally Posted by TigerUpperCut

Agreed, I don't try and run fight club (Palahniuk style) but I don't want somebody trying to train safely getting injured b/c there partner can't or won't control themselves. That behavior has to be stopped early or a bully mentality is either created or re-inforced and it effects the entire class.

Good point. When I trained in Krav we had a bruiser like that. He broke my ankle during a ground work exercise.

[resqr1]

Originally Posted by DKatman

I understand the drill you did. I understand the point you are making (and it is nice to have learned it in the setting you did). But I still take exception to someone with groin protection being unaffected by a strike to the groin. Now I have heard about and seen people who have iron wills and their shear toughness carry them through much. But I find it hard to simulate someone not giving up on the choke and realistic strikes in the self defense.

And I do think what you learned proved valuable for yourself. You acknowledge that you didn't realize go for the pluck. And I wouldn't begin to discount the importance of the pluck either. I am just saying, if it is a choke from the front, I would plan for my attacker to almost be lifted off the ground (OK, I am not fooling you, I am not that strong) if I am kicking to the groin and you do have groin protection. If it is from the side, you are still feeling my strike with enough intensity that it won't just be ignored.

I am just trying to state that we do still hold back some of the force and maintain proper (or as proper as we can) technique so that we don't abandon all we have learned when our adrenaline is pumped up to ten.

Again, I still think you learned something VERY valuable. You have to get that choke off your neck....oh yeah...then kill.

:)

Dave

It is VERY possible for an attacker not to feel a FULL power groin kick. We had an incident here about 6 weeks ago where an inmate attacked an officer with a blunt weapon. During the encounter the inmate was kicked full force no less than eight times with ZERO effect. No drugs or alcohol on board...just pure rage and adrenaline. No single strike or type of strike insures victory.

[nosceteipsum]

thanks resqr1. I was reading these posts at work today and couldn't help but think about how people, especially when they are starting out rely so much on those groin strikes. I think maybe part of the problem is the way it is taught.

everyone needs to understand that the plucks followed by a groin strike is not the technique. the technique is to pluck (Defend) and counter as close to simultaneous as possible and follow up with more strikes to prevent subsequent and possibly worse attack. the defense and counter is what shifts the momentum of the attack temporarily, just enough for the defender to do what is necessary. whether the counter is a groin strike, a right straight, or a headbutt does not matter. you do whatever is appropriate and necessary and you don't expect that the first strike will finish it for you.

if the initial groin strike has no effect, the elbow number one or two knuckles applied aggressively to the back of the skull via the nose that follow the groin strike will. i have yet to meet or hear of someone who has conditioned his or her face.

[DKatman]

^^ Both great additions to the conversation.

Thanks,
Dave

[armitage]

The best Stress training I got was through using Bulletman suits (from Bill Kipp's FAST Defense system) - that way the defender was able to go all out with full powered strikes to the attacker without fear of injuring them in the training. Verbal aggression was also added in to really simulate the fear and stress of a real life attack.

[jaspthecat]

Originally Posted by armitage

Verbal aggression was also added in to really simulate the fear and stress of a real life attack.

Ha-ha, there's nothing like the sound of 30 plus men cussing at the top of their voices. I find I run out of insults after a few minutes.

[TigerUpperCut]

Originally Posted by armitage

The best Stress training I got was through using Bulletman suits (from Bill Kipp's FAST Defense system) - that way the defender was able to go all out with full powered strikes to the attacker without fear of injuring them in the training. Verbal aggression was also added in to really simulate the fear and stress of a real life attack.

Did you attend a seminar using the suit or did your school purchase this. I have been looking for where to get some sort of suit like this to allow students to unleash on a target.

[Kirsten]

Also checkout Redman, High Gear (tony blauer) and Hitman suits. The High Gear is a favorite of LE defensive tactics instructors now because it allows for great protection with a high level of movement that you can't get from some of the other suits. But know that they are spendy... but a good investment.

[TigerUpperCut]

Thanks Kirsten,
I know an instructor close to me who has a redman suit so I'll probably see if I can borrow that first but will look into all options.

[skibum]

I checked out the High Gear site - it is an excellent equipment for Krav to add realism/stress to training. And it is pricey. I wonder if any civilian Krav outfits use it for stress training?

[Kirsten]

We use all of them... The best way to get one without buying, is to see if you can borrow it from the local Police Dept or Sheriff's Office and include them in on the training. Our first free self-defense seminar we did, we included the local SO in the advertising and program in exchange for use of some suits. It was a win-win... and worth a shot.

[JL]

Yes we do. We like the High Gear Suit alittle better then the Redman Suit. Better movement, although it is a little pricey the gear itself is awesome. I will say that having two suits is necessary for optimal training. (pad on pad = 2x protection) including ground defenses (ground and pound) we can elbow strike with full force with no undue injury. I usually do not like to endorse equipment but this stuff is really nice to have! Hope this helps you in your quest for 100% combative training. JL

[armitage]

Originally Posted by TigerUpperCut

Did you attend a seminar using the suit or did your school purchase this. I have been looking for where to get some sort of suit like this to allow students to unleash on a target.

I attended 2 seminars hosted by Bill Kipp (one in the UK, the other in Colorado) - he does the training for the Bulletmen suits (I hear it's pretty expensive, but that's mostly the cost of the suit because it is individually fitted). The first seminar was on verbal skills and stand-up defenses (did 2 scenarios verbally, 2 with the bulletman suit), and the second was on weapons defenses (did one against a knife, one against a gun, both with the instructor in the suit).

Although he trains instructors in his own FAST Defense and FAST Combatives systems -I know a number of schools who had integrated Bulletman suits into their own training programs, which he seems to be cool with, as long as it's appropriate (he once heard of an instructor who was wearing the suit while beating up his students in "scenarios" because he refused to react appropriately to taking multiple hits!!)

From what I understand, the Bulletman suit offers a large amount of protection for the head area (with webbed eyeslits so the students can apply eye pokes/gouges etc), and for the groin (so they can make full powered strikes there with knees etc).

I think I posted a review of my first FAST seminar here a couple of years ago (I went to it in 2007) - should be able to find it with the search.

[skibum]

Kirsten, thanks a lot for the info and for your suggestion (on how to try the suits). I will recommend it to our instructor.