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Old 12-07-2004, 10:01 AM   #1
guillemdg
 
Default Wt or Krav???

Hi everyone!! :) I'm really interested in practising Krav, but i've heard wt, wing tsun, it's a good self-defense method too. Could you tell me the difference among them? Which one is the most useful in the street? Are they compatible??
Thanks a lot from Spain!!
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:02 AM   #2
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I studied WT a little bit about 30 years ago. Doesn't qualify me really to talk about it so I'll leave that to others. What I can tell you is by design Krav Maga is easy to learn, easy to retain, and effective in the streets. I have several stories from our gym of people who had only taken a couple of months of classes and had to use what they had learned in the streets in very dangerous situation (multiple attackers, weapons, car jacking etc.). I have not seen a traditional martial art than can produce those kinds of results that quickly.
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Old 12-07-2004, 06:14 PM   #3
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I just met some wing chun guys a few days ago. Anyway, krav and wing chun have an emphasis on self defense. In my view, wing chun has a more solid theoretical base, where krav abandons some of it under the umbrella term of the adrenaline response. In this regard, krav may be just a bit less efficient, but probably more dependable. Wing chun has more structure to it, krav is more natural/instinctive. But ultimately I think it comes down to which you like as far as the training goes, not the theory and structure. If you enjoy practicing one and like its benefits more, take that one- you'll be better because you'll practice it more.

garddawg: 30 years ago? How old are you? You don't look it.
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Old 12-07-2004, 07:49 PM   #4
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Not this again!! :? :)

Wing Chun as evolved into several branches since Bruce Lee introduced it to the west. The Intials WC refer to the classic version. Wing Tsun is an off shot from Grand Master Dr. Leung Ting and has several variations, such as Wing Tzun, which I teach. So it's initials are WT. There is also a Ving Tsun which preserves the Master Yip Man heritage, initials VT. This group has a museum in Ohio.

The basic idea is that your muscle memory will respond based on training, when faced with a surge of adrenilin. Since bad habits can also result from training, Wing Chun invented a system of training only good habits. This training is called Chi Sau.

The WT branchs do more sparring and realistic combat simulation and the WC branchs do more Chi Sau, in general. WT also rigidly adheres to the concept that any move in a form should have a coresponding practice with partner in chi sau, and then any chi sau move should be then practiced in free applications via sparring.

Some in the past have noted that WT focuses on the centerline while KM is more \"offline\" so the two may be compatible. However, the two training methods do not seem to be compatible at this time.

As I did last time, I will answer any specific questions about WT or Wing Chun in general, but I do not want to come off as an advertisement.

8)
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Old 12-08-2004, 07:51 AM   #5
wim
 
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Boy, those Chinese really know how to make things confusing... :O)
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Old 12-09-2004, 10:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by \"garddawg\"
I studied WT a little bit about 30 years ago. Doesn't qualify me really to talk about it so I'll leave that to others. What I can tell you is by design Krav Maga is easy to learn, easy to retain, and effective in the streets. I have several stories from our gym of people who had only taken a couple of months of classes and had to use what they had learned in the streets in very dangerous situation (multiple attackers, weapons, car jacking etc.). I have not seen a traditional martial art than can produce those kinds of results that quickly.

I think an important part of any defense system is the students!!! I recently had a chance to work TKD against a Krav Practitioner and found both were effective I think it is all about the student and how seriosly they train in thier particular sysytem
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Old 12-09-2004, 10:56 AM   #7
CaliWT
 
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Originally Posted by \"wim\"
Boy, those Chinese really know how to make things confusing... :O)
Yes, It can be.

Think of it like all the different versions of KM. You got this one, a few split offs, then you got a few other versions from different people that came to USA from Isreal. Then you got more in Europe. Then you got Isreal, with it's own schools and then last (or First :D ) you have what ever the Isreali Defense Force really does in secret.

You Have Founder Imi and what he did then, and what each of his students \"thinks\" Master Imi wanted KM to be. and then you got what is done today.

And You Guys use KM initials for all of this!! In Wing Chun it is all pronounced Wing Chun but we spell it different to show who's version is what.
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Old 12-09-2004, 06:37 PM   #8
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Hehe, next thing you know we will be having lineage wars! :D

I have seen some of the WT spar on a couple vids that are floating around the web. They go hard. From Estonia apparently (these sparring sessions were).

From what I have picked up in some martial arts mags and the web it is kind of a chinese rbsd system! In that it is a real blend of the old and the new.

Best bet would be to give it a go, take your free lesson, ask some questions, evaluate how the train (will you be spending valuable time learning forms or katas, how does this relate to your own view?) etc?

My vote remains with krav though :)
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Old 12-09-2004, 08:07 PM   #9
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WT has only 6 forms (katas) 2 for the beginers, which you use for about 3 to 6 years, then an Advanced form. Much later you get the Famous Wooden Dummy set and a few people get the last two, the long pole and double knives.

Once you learn the forms you do them on your own. They are for when you DO NOT have someone to practice with :D They are great for structure, exercise, and coordination. We also have numerous solo drills like stepping, airpunhing, turns, and air kicks.

Very little class time is spent on forms. You learn a few steps of the form, then you learn what those moves are for, then you practice with a partner. Beginners however need to spend class time learning the form enough so they can do it at home. This helps them learn to learn movement from a teacher. Unless they come from a movement background like dance or another martial art, this really helps them.

As to WT being a Reality Based Martial Art, yes!! We are a traditional Martial Art. But our tradition is to be the most modern, developed, and realistic system we can be. Our tradition has been to improve! Most traditional marial arts preserve what the learned and never change or grow. That is why you see them wearing a Gi. It was the state of the Art athletic wear in the 1500's. They preserve this as tradition! We wear sweat pants or running suits and t-shirts! :wink:
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Old 12-24-2004, 02:28 PM   #10
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Cali WT,

Sorry for this, but I have to answer to your post.

Imi designed KM to be open system, always impoving...Which means he gave the founders diploma to Eyal and Daren, so these two have right to change techniques according to changing needs. So, there is only one KM, which is still changing? Is is different from what IMI made. I hope so, as we all see there are diffenrent threats in the World today. So, it is just as Imi wanted...open...And is is not only respecting the will of the founder, but really a matter of staying alive.

KM or WT/WChun

Hm, I have practised all three. But even I share my opinion, it is still only an opinion. So I rather keep my opinion. :)
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Old 12-24-2004, 03:47 PM   #11
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True. Nothing wrong with improving and testing to make sure things are effective. I was more refering to people within a family, like KM or Wing Chun, that do not agree on the changes. Different branchs on the same tree if you will.

In the past, on this site, there were several questions about various KM groups that are not affiliated with \"Krav Maga Worldwide Interprises\"TM. Some were legitamate from Imi or Isreal, some where not, but all use the initials KM. My only point was that outsiders have no idea what \"real\" KM is. Is the fake scam that copys the DVD'S and opens a KM aerobics school in the founders vision? I doubt it. Not all versions of KM are in the founders vision I would guess. But that is why you have this public forum, so people can ask and expose these sharlatons.

So, In the Wing Chun world the Chinese characters for Wing Chun et al. are always the same, but for each branch we have different spellings, and different initials in the western languages. I point this out because people think they are all the same, which is far from the truth!!
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Old 12-25-2004, 01:22 AM   #12
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CaliWT,

As I said I have practised Leung Ting and William Cheung style as well...Some similarities, but lot of differences.

However I know many other KM schools had relationship with Imi, but know they are on they own - not working with Eyal or Daren - and when I see their videos, make me think...anyway...But at least once they had relationship with Imi.

And there are some folks - spent some time in the Israeli Army - and when they leave Israel, they claim themselfes Krav Maga experts. And that is nothing else but marketing.

But if anybody ask me to give suggestion which system to study - WT/WC or KM - I simply will no answer. I am teaching KM, I have my point, but I simlpy learned, people beleive in what they want to beleive. Logical point normally won't work...
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:13 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by \"CaliWT\"
Some in the past have noted that WT focuses on the centerline while KM is more \"offline\" so the two may be compatible. However, the two training methods do not seem to be compatible at this time.
What do you mean by offline? And why don't you think KM and WT are compatible? Don't you think one could be incorporated into another to make either one stronger?
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Old 01-03-2005, 12:31 AM   #14
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Centerline in WT is the line connecting the torsos between two combatants, defining the area their arms will occupy in a fight. Generally it runs from the lower sternum to the other persons lower sternum. Other arts, like KM, I think refer to the vertical axis of the bodys center as the centerline, I.E. from the top of the head down through the core out the groin. This gets people real confused!! :D We call this line an Axis, as it is only used when defining a rotation, and WT likes scientific terms. There is also a line on the surface of the body, dividing it in two halves, which is called the vertical midline.

Everything in WT is based on the centerline because everything we do is either moving forward or has forward pressure in the limbs on contact. Our centerline then forms a \"lazer sight'' to keep us lined up on the enemy and helps us keep track of our forward presure.

It is also the shortest distance between us, so it is the fastest. And since two objects can not occupy the same space, if we occuppy first, then it helps prevent them from hitting us. I think the boxers used to say \"the firstest which the mostest is the bestest\"

as to mixed martial arts. WT is a complete system. It starts with a basic set of movements and then builds on them. WT has no need to mix in other arts, except to practice against. We have many experts in things like Muy Thai and wrestling and we have incorperated some of these things into training sets to practice against. But the WT system does not need any new moves. Many of us have taken other lessons either for the experince or to have some skills to test our students with, but usually we only discover that we had it in WT allready.

WT also is very specialized and as a system, it doesn't have \"parts\" you can take out and put into another format. Any Art that has these kinds of parts is not being practiced as a system, but as a method. A method is a collection of parts you practice and fit together to defend yourself. Many people today take parts from systems and methods and patchwork them together and call it a system. It is only a method. Example is Muy Thai and BJJ.

People can learn all the moves of Muy Thai in a few years. Then they just get better at them. They can also learn the basics of BJJ in a few years. Then they spar alot to make it work together. Sometimes they enjoy new material so they become collectors, taking special moves from books and seminars. These guys can be very good at martial arts and kick a$$ but it is not a system, it is only their method. When they try to teach this method to another person, they often fail because only their experience makes it work, there is no system to teach.

To be a system it must be automatic. Method collectors are always deciding with their mind which move to use or have to remember to switch from stand up to ground methods. Over time their experince makes many things automatic, but this is just a accident from the repeated motions.

A system is the same stuff at all five distances. It has the same intial defense against every attack. It is automatic. A system must be taught so it also is a systematic way of teaching to ensure that it works. It is no accident!!

Much of what I see and read about KM is in line with WT theory. You could come to WT after mastering KM or go to KM after mastering WT. But if you tried to mix them without mastering then you would disolve the systematic programing WT is providing. Your muscle memory would be fouled up!! I haven't taken KM lessons so I do not know if it does specific muscle memory training.

WT also has different stances, punches, deflections, and deformations than other arts so it doesn't really help to try to use them as stand alone or to bring in punches and kicks that require a different stance. KM seems to use the more standard stances and punches so things like Muy Thai and boxing may advance KM muscle memory not negate it.

8)
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