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Old 01-15-2006, 11:32 PM   #1
jaydogg72
 
Default Kali-effective for self defense?

Hello all,

I wanted to get your opinion of Kali, both empty hand and weapons as a self defense art...
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Old 01-16-2006, 10:06 AM   #2
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Which Kali? All of the Phillipino martial arts/Kali guys I have trained with know how to use knife and stick. They practically specialize in these weapons. I got certified to teach weapons in one of these systems.

I teach Krav Maga, and prefer the Krav Maga empty hand techniques, the way the techniques are taught and practiced, and the weapons defenses.

For the self-defense student who wants/needs to learn the basics of self-defense, I think Krav Maga is the way to do this. If you really want to get good at knife and stick and a quality instructor is available, I think the PMA/Kali/Silat approach has a lot to offer. There is quite a bit of variance in quality of instructor/system from my experience.

Anyone who likes any kind of fighting or martial arts has to appreciate the way people knock each other around with sticks at Dog Brothers gatherings...

: )
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Old 01-17-2006, 12:15 AM   #3
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The fact that the Dog Brothers practice kali should already tell you it's effective. The same goes for krabi krabong and whatever sort of BJJ they use (Machado I think). On Friday I ordered their Kali Tudo DVD set for this reason- lots of people say that their \"exotic\" unorthodox style will work in MMA, but I really believe these guys- they understand full contact fighting.
All those weapon oriented arts will give you an appreciation for footwork and recognizing all the lines, arcs, and angles that attacks can take, which translates to unarmed stuff somewhat. For a somewhat kali oriented use of the knife program, Cold Steel's Warrior's Edge series is good stuff- its rooted in aliveness and sound principles and could work itself into krav pretty easilly, except for the preference for a strong side forward stance.
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:11 AM   #4
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\"The fact that the Dog Brothers practice kali should already tell you it's effective.\"

Why, because they get together in a park, with sticks, in a duel-type set-up, and beat the snot out of each other? How does that, in and of itself, make for a successful self-defense system?
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:45 AM   #5
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Another instructor of mine, not a Krav instructor but a person who is well acquainted with Krav and appreciates it deeply, has referred to a lot of the Kali as \"PhD level stuff\". What he means by it is that Krav Maga prides itself on being able to be learned relatively quickly and become effective almost immediately.

While Filipino stuff is highly effective and very well-thought out, it's also very intricate and complex. One would have to train for years and years before the training would significantly help with self-defense. Those years are what most people aren't willing to commit to.

My feeling is that it's great to train it, but not exclusively. I've taken lots of seminars and trained in small groups with friends who have done years of training. So, it's not a waste of time by any stretch of the imagination, but standing alone I doubt it'll meet most people's self-defense needs.
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Old 01-17-2006, 03:02 PM   #6
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\"Why, because they get together in a park, with sticks, in a duel-type set-up, and beat the snot out of each other? How does that, in and of itself, make for a successful self-defense system?\"

That doesn't mean its an effective self defense system in and of itself (not exactly what I suggested), but it does tell you its an effective system for duel-type set up with weapons (mostly sticks, also knives, staves, garden hoses etc) possibly in a part or garage. You could argue that that also does not prove anything, but it does suggest it- why would you train in something that didn't help you when the pressure was on and someone was trying to beat you with a weapon? If you read up on some of their history, it was started, at least in part, to pressure test martial arts techniques and training methods, basically MMA with weapons. They would have matches with kobudo guys with tonfas and other weapon arts- sword people with wooden swords, etc. They eventually arrived at a point where kali and krabi krabong were successful (effective) as far as technique and training method (and at some point jujutsu was added because sometimes it goes to the ground). You can always argue that any sort of fighting can't be proven as an effective form of self defense without actual proof of its use in real self defense, but I believe that full contact matches, armed or unarmed, are fairly effective means of testing them. The blocking methods work against an unrehearsed full power committed swing from an opponent- its been shown in these matches. That's just one example, but you can see what I mean.
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Old 01-17-2006, 06:15 PM   #7
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Now that I've trained both Krav and Kali, I have to agree with KravMDjeff. Krav is extremely practical and easy to learn. Kali is complex but highly effective. IMO, learning Kali is a natural step after krav, but not instead of Krav. It was in krav that I developed a \"fighting spirit\", that is apparent to all my kali peers.

That said, I think it is essential that everyone learn weapons. I came to this conclusion after sparring with some of the women in krav fight class. They were allowed full contact and I was told to hold back. No matter how hard they hit, it didn't phase me and when I landed \"mild\" punches or front kicks, their eyes would well up etc. I had planned on teaching Krav to my daughters, but realized in a real confrontation, against a determined attacker, they were gonna need a weapon. Eventually I found a Kali instructor who was only one person removed from the founder of Leskas. I have been training for a year now and plan to teach both krav and kali to my kids before they head off to college.

I think like esiley, if I was empty hand I would use krav, but if I can grab a key, pen, cell phone, pager, or any other handheld device, I would use Kali.

Besides kali, yawara might be a good addition, but not replacement, for krav. It could also be adapted to a cell phone, pager, or any other hand held device.
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:47 PM   #8
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There's also the issue of teaching defenses against weapons you don't know how to use- this is a problem with some martial arts. If you know how to shoot a gun, you have a better understanding of how to structure gun defenses. The same with knife defenses or stick defenses.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:46 AM   #9
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\"There's also the issue of teaching defenses against weapons you don't know how to use- this is a problem with some martial arts. If you know how to shoot a gun, you have a better understanding of how to structure gun defenses. The same with knife defenses or stick defenses.\"

I'd agree with this statement, except how many attackers using a knife or stick are actually trained to use them?
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:48 AM   #10
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I agree with Kurt, and I think the \"duel\" setting is a farce. That's a manufactured range--that's people choosing to fight, not self defense.
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:04 AM   #11
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Regarding the duel setting. Maybe this is what Ryan meant by \"manufactured range\", but when you duel, or spar, in a prearranged way you are to some degree \"prepared\", mentally if nothing else. It's different when someone attacks you without warning. That being said, I do think there's some benefit to full contact training....
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:37 AM   #12
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Sparring certainly has merits, and is a vital component to any real self defense system, but the way most sparring is conducted does little to replicate self defense scenarios, and can engender habits which are counterproductive. My main \"complaint\" is, how many times have you EVER heard of a fight where two guys were using sticks or knives against each other?
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:56 AM   #13
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ìIMO, learning Kali is a natural step after krav, but not instead of Krav. It was in krav that I developed a \"fighting spirit\", that is apparent to all my kali peers.î

Nothing against kali, arnis, et al., but the natural step for me after Krav was to study real fights. After watching recorded real fight footage (some weapons-related, some not) MY natural progression was to A)train more aggressively/proactively when working weapons defenses and B)cross-train in grappling systems in order to control distances and to refine tactile sensitivity.

Iím not trying to begin a Grappling vs. _______ thread, but Ryan had us do a drill last year (or the year before?) that indicated the difficulty of taking out a folder, revealing/locking the blade, and actually cutting an attacker when the partner was highly resistant. Perhaps he can explain it better than I, but the drill (for me) provided insight about the difficulty of pulling out a weapon in the middle of an altercation.

We can argue the merits of both sides, but why spend (lose) time brandishing the weapon (which will likely be concealed) instead of punching, kneeing, or making a getaway? Just something to think about (maybe weíll start another thread on this topic 8) ).

ìThat said, I think it is essential that everyone learn weapons. I came to this conclusion after sparring with some of the women in krav fight class. They were allowed full contact and I was told to hold back. No matter how hard they hit, it didn't phase me and when I landed \"mild\" punches or front kicks, their eyes would well up etc.î

:?

I feel Ryan and Kurtís last few posts address this post well. However, I feel the way you quickly discount a womanís sparring ability indicates a lack of understanding of real fighting. For the women (and men) that come to KM for self-defense, their goal is ultimately to get home safely, period. Itís about going apesh!t when attacked long enough to escape, not to trade liver shots or spinning heel kick the attackerís head. In essence, most donít come to KM with the objective of methodically taking apart a bigger adversary under a certain number of timed, controlled-rounds. As Ryan mentioned, sparring is an artificial range and mentality, that is, you are ready and prepared for the other person to attack you. Iíd wager to say that these characteristics are often absent in real-life assaults.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:04 PM   #14
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Ryan - I think that the dueling range does the same thing for weapons training that stand-up sparring and rolling do for unarmed practice.

There is no replacement in weapons training for working against a motivated, resisting opponent. All of the same points regarding movement, distance, and lines of attack apply.

If I square off with someone in knife sparring and can get a kill shot really frequently against someone who has a knife or stick, it applies directly to self-defense. Getting the jump on someone only makes it that much better...

I don't see this as any different than boxing, kickboxing, or MMA sparring. The only real danger I see with any kind of sparring is that it introduces a \"tennis match\" mentality in which people dial back and allow it to go back-and-forth rather than overwhelming/hurting their sparring partner.

With the right drills on top of this though, a well-trained and conditioned fighter can always turn up the heat.

The reason I don't emphasize weapons so much anymore in my own training or make it a bigger deal for my students is that my unarmed fighting is so much better now than before with Krav Maga - and the truth of the matter is, if you can stop someone with your bare hands, you can stop them with just about anything...provided you TRAIN the other things some.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:26 PM   #15
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Speaking of college and self defense, I just went to the first day of a college self defense class. The instructor was watching some recorded judo matches, which made me happy. He began by saying that karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, aikido and others are outdated because striking is not an effective way to defend yourself (aikido is not a striking art). He mentioned the UFC and how 90-95 percent of fights go to the ground. He said that we would never learn outdated techniques like this: (he stood in a horse stance and threw bad reverse punches with kiais), then that we would never learn this move, and if we see it at a self defense class then walk away, then showed a slow eye poke. He then did some weird tiger claws and stuff and made Bruce Lee sounds, and everyone laughed. He said that when you watch a real fight, most punches miss, so obviously if my big fist can't hit his big head, then my small finger definitely can't hit his small eye. I wanted to raise my hand and ask why W.E. Fairbairn, who trained police and military in hand to hand combat, had a black belt in judo, and had seen and participated in real violence as a Shanghai municipal policeman would create a curriculum that deliberately de-emphasized grappling and favored stand up striking and things like eye gouging. I'm not bashing judo at all, but to say that striking is outdated is just a bizarre thing for a self defense instructor to say. The guy who used to teach self defense there was a tang soo do guy who had been training for 30+ years- I wonder what he would think of that.
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:42 PM   #16
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I am a level IV Krav student and Serrada Escrima instructor. I will agree that FMA's are primarily weapons based. However, if you are learning from a good FMA instructor who has taken the time to listen to what his students want, the teacher should be able to teach what is one of the FMA's claims to fame. The fact that stick, knife and empty hand tactics are the same for each. Your arms become your sticks, your blade is an extention of your arm etc... The argument \"I'm never going to have a stick handy\" is to a certain extent true. However, weapons are a great training tool for empty hand tactics. The \"fear factor\" and pain factor are indeed good teachers. If you can effectively defend against a swinging stick, a punch looks like it is moving at a snails pace. The FMA's have some of the best eye-hand, hand-speed and flow drills on the planet.

Other things that the FMA's focus on are

* work in zones or angles of attack. We do not care what kind of attack it is.

* attack the attacking weapon (defanging the snake). Destroy the attacking limb and it can no longer be used for attacking.

* Be very aggressive! If a conflict lasts more than 10sec. You are doing something wrong.

BTW - FMA's have been proven in combat for quite a long time. Not just in sparring matches or contests. They have been used in the jungles of the Philipines, The streets of Boston, New York, all over the U.S. and by Navy Seals and SWAT teams all over the world.

Just a note, you shouldn't be carrying a blade if you dont know how to quickly deploy and use it. Additionally you should know how to retain it.

So, with all due respect. The Dog bros. are not all FMA's. We do not only fight with sticks and knives. It does not take years to learn how to defend yourself. However, it does take years to master anything. You can learn enough Krav in a few months to defend yourself but it too takes years to master.

I love Krav. I love the mindset. It is a very good fighting system but it is not the end all of martial arts. FMA's combine well with almost any self-defense system or are just fine when used alone. Find a good teacher and find out for yourself.

Respectfully,

Brian
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Old 01-18-2006, 04:58 PM   #17
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\"I don't see this as any different than boxing, kickboxing, or MMA sparring. \"

The last I checked, those were all sports.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:38 PM   #18
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All this talk about Kali has me intrigued, so I did a search for a place near me that teaches the method. I found a site that mentioned Kali, but it turned out to be a place that offers \"Modern Arnis.\"

Are these similar systems? If so, is one better than the other? Just curious.

Thanks!
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:52 PM   #19
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\"However, I feel the way you quickly discount a womanís sparring ability indicates a lack of understanding of real fighting.\"

La Revancha, you might be right. We tried to make fight class as real as possible, by sneaking up on the \"victim\" taking them to the ground simulating as much as possible an attempted abduction, rape etc. They were supposed to go 'ape****' and get away. But if I had put in a full effort they could not have gotten away. That's not to say they didn't land punches and attempt to scratch out my eyes etc. I just defended. In a real assault I could have landed head shots that would put them out cold. This is what prompted me to think that a weapon is needed. An umbrella, mascara container, or flashlight can all be used against an assailant and no one would think twice about a woman walking out to her car with one of these items in hand.

I have to agree that pulling a folder takes a great deal of practice. We have learned to draw a balisong very quickly, but the real benefit of Kali is I don't need the blade exposed. With the folder closed I can still be effective. Really, any object will afford me an advantage over an empty handed assailant. It doesn't have to be an edged weapon or a 28\" stick.

With regards to sparring, it has to be controlled in the US. But in the Phillipines sparring was to the death up until it was outlawed in the 80's - yes the 1980's! I suspect that deeeep in the jungles it is still to the death.

In our training group we aim to make it as realistic as possible, just like you would in krav fight class. It's not to the death, we wear full body coverings and helmets, but we go home with bruises, cuts and scrapes none the less. The only way to keep distance in a Kali fight is to keep moving; there is no manufactured range. If I can close the distance, I will. Once in close, I'll try to land as many strikes as possible before we are separated by the instructor. It's just as grueling as Krav fight class.

Krav is great. With it you learn to strike safely, think aggressively, fight intelligently and go home safely. I recommend it to everyone, but for the women that I know and care about, I also recommend weapons training. I can't imagine how a 4'11\" teen girl could possibly stop a 6'4\" would be attacker if she were unarmed and surprised. She would need an equalizer and the skill to target its use efficiently. A bare fisted teen just doesn't hit hard enough to disuade a determined attacker. Its far more likely that she'll just make him mad. Weapons training teaches angles of attack, anatomical targets and develops lighting speed. It is a great add on to a solid base of Krav.
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:29 PM   #20
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\"But if I had put in a full effort they could not have gotten away. That's not to say they didn't land punches and attempt to scratch out my eyes etc. I just defended. In a real assault I could have landed head shots that would put them out cold.\"

This ignores the true essence of self defense/self protection. Does anyone think that criminals are looking for a fight? They are looking for a victim, that's why criminals tend to profile. Individuals are chosen because the assailant believes they will be an easy and compliant target. The element of surprise works both ways. If one understands how to employ the behavioral delivery system, attributes become less important, and the \"defender\" is able to lower the guard of the attacker, creating opportunities for pre-emptive strikes.

Do you think Mike Tyson raping Desiree Washington looked like Mike Tyson fighting Frank Bruno?
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:28 AM   #21
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I actually like the idea of weapons sparring, for the reasons esiley mentioned. It's probably not the kind of thing you want to teach to your level one students, but once you get into higher levels (4, 5) some weapon sparring can be beneficial.

We've done some knife fighting and stick fighting in level 5, trying to employ KM's knife vs knife and stick vs stick principles against a person who is actually fighting back. Of course sparring differs from an actual self-defense situation, but all training is staged to a degree. Usually, when we train in regular class, the attacker offers no resistance, making it simple to do the defense. In sparring, at least you get some idea what it's like to fight against a more mobile person. We do it with punches and kicks in fight class, so why not with weapons? If we never sparred and only learned to defend a punch we know is coming, how effective would we be in a fight? Same with weapons. You get used to seeing another person move, see how he holds the weapon, how he attacks, how you might defend, what works, what doesn't... In a real fight you might only have a split second to react but having done some sparring might aid in helping you see the opening more quickly and react appropriately.
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:08 AM   #22
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Thanks for all the replys! I have trained a few years in Muay Thai, and BJJ, and just started Kali this week, it employs empty hand as well as sticks, and knife. I am having fun training again, it seems complicated, but I am a newbie and its to be expected, however I can see how one I get better, and more comfortable, with some practice it will become an effective part of my martial arts arsenal. I am traing at the Kali Academy in Whittier, and the Guro there is named Bud Thompson, he is 76 years old and still very fast and amazing at this art.
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Old 01-19-2006, 07:52 AM   #23
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Serrada, thanks for the more precise response. What you said really hit home in that-

1) Any martial arts is much better in a self-defense situation than no martial arts
2) Any martial arts will take years to master-even Krav (although I do believe it becomes \"effective\" MUCH earlier-based upon first-hand experience)
3) FMA have been proven in battle (I'm a history nerd, so I love the interplay of Spanish culture with native Filipino, etc.etc.)

Tae Kwon Do and boxing, two very sport-oriented MA's will probably do SOMETHING for someone in a self-defense situation, but that is not their forte. I'm learning more and more that it's helpful to err on the side of generosity with other practitioners.
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:14 AM   #24
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\"I can't imagine how a 4'11\" teen girl could possibly stop a 6'4\" would be attacker if she were unarmed and surprised. She would need an equalizer and the skill to target its use efficiently. A bare fisted teen just doesn't hit hard enough to disuade a determined attacker.\"

There is an article in LA Family magazine that can be found on the KMX site that tells the story of Mickenzie Smith, a 12 year old girl who fought off her attacker after he got her in his car. I think this illustrates Ryan's point about attackers looking for a \"victim\" not someone who'll fight back.

\"Usually, when we train in regular class, the attacker offers no resistance, making it simple to do the defense.\" - Really? No resistance, that kinda suprises me.
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:25 AM   #25
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\"1) Any martial arts is much better in a self-defense situation than no martial arts
2) Any martial arts will take years to master-even Krav (although I do believe it becomes \"effective\" MUCH earlier-based upon first-hand experience)
3) FMA have been proven in battle (I'm a history nerd, so I love the interplay of Spanish culture with native Filipino, etc.etc.) \"

I happen to disagree with most of this. #1 is simply not true. Many martial arts have very little, if any, real self defense applications, and therefore give students a false sense of security. Also, the multitudes of techniques taught in most martial arts (fine motor in most cases) also result in the student/victim freezing under pressure. There are virtually infinite numbers of cases (see Kurt's example as a great one) where people with no training have survived attacks.

#2 is deceiving. You don't have to \"master\" Krav Maga. It's a principle-based system that is integrated. Most TMAs are the opposite of that.

#3 is irrelevant. I don't care any more about how the Filipinos fought the Spaniards than I do about how knights slayed dragons.
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:30 AM   #26
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Ryan, on the issue of #1, I believe that rises and falls on the shoulders of an instructor. In KM we preach that, more than anything, having the aggressive mindset is what will allow you to defend yourself, above and beyond perfect technique. Although, there was much more complex techniques in my TMA training, I was taught the same mindset. I started training in Krav with this mindset already. The don't-quit-no-matter-how-much-it-hurts-because-this-is-life-or-death-stuff is taught in many TMA schools, and to that extent, they are making their students safer. If you compare the worst of TMA with the best of Krav, of course there's no comparison. The same would be true if you compare the absolute worst of Krav with the best of TMA.

#2- I never said a person had to master it to be effective. Rather, I said the opposite, that you DIDN'T have to master it to effectively defend yourself. But #2 comment is only decieving if you assume that I am speaking as a TMA practitioner, not a Krav instructor. I have met people in LA who I would feel have \"mastered\" the system, and they all have been training intensely for many years. I have not met one Krav practitioner who has \"mastered\" the system in less than 3-4 years.

#3- I wasn't talking about medieval warfare. I was talking about 20th century warfare. During the Spanish-American war, US Marines were dying left and right because native Filipinos were taking the Marines out. The Marines were armed with rifles, bayonets, sidearms and explosive devices. The Filipinos were armed with sticks, knives, and mechetes. It's the reason that the US Military switched the standard officer's sidearm from a .38 to a .45...because in close-quarters, Filipino natives were getting shot 3 and 4 times and still slicing the American soldiers up with a mechete because there wasn't enough stopping power in the handgun. It's one of the reasons the Philippines is not a terrority of the US, but an independant nation at this point.

Besides, I prefaced #3 with the fact that it was simply a preference/opinion.

In general, I was trying to show charity toward someone from a different discipline who had some valid points that I thought I could learn from. But of course there's a reason why I choose to train and teach Krav instead of any of the other TMA's I've done, including Filipino styles. I believe it to be the best among many good disciplines.
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:52 AM   #27
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Your #1 has now changed. Either some training is better than none, or it depends. You indicated the former in your first post.

If your number 2 indicates that KM is unlike TMAs, what was the point of it? KM is not a TMA. You don't have to wait until some mythical rank is achieved before you start learning application or \"the good stuff\". My students walk away from every KM class with something that is useful to them TODAY--not something useful after 5000 reps and 7 belt levels.

Please explain to me how #3 is relevant to teaching a 45 year old accountant skills and tactics that will enhance the likelihood of them getting home safely at night.

Look, I've trained in Balintawak Arnis with a Grandmaster from Cebu City on MANY occasions. All of the fancy disarms, passes, drills, etc. are complete crap for real self defense. Is it fun? Yes, it is. Does it help develop some worthy attributes? Yes, it does. However, in the words of Grandmaster Bobby Tabaoda, \"In real fight, it's just whack, whack.\"
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:13 AM   #28
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I don't think that the women who sign up for Krav Maga classes for self-defense reasons would be real happy to hear that the only thing they will be able to get from Krav is \"well, if someone attacks me I just wont make it easy\". These women want to even the odds. I don't blame them. I believe it takes a lot more time than a couple of months for a woman to be able to effectively defend herself against a much larger attacker. Sorry to say it, but Krav is not a quick fix. The skills (proper punching, kicking, elbows, mindset) are a good start, but these alone do not make a good fighter or even give one the skills to defend effectively. Women need to work reflexes, targeting and strategy. Sparring is important for women (and men). If you are not used to contact (hitting and being hit) the chanced of freezing up when you are struck are very high.

I also believe that a great equalizer for women is weapons. Blades, impact, whatever. Properly trained with them, they will have a better chance. Period.

I agree. Krav is great. It is a great start. Stick with it. Get beyond the basics, spar. Work hard at it and you will benefit.

Angel Cabales was about 5' tall and 97lbs. He did not (could not) rely on muscle or gross motor skills to defend himself. So, he developed a system to do so (Cabales Serrada Escrima) that used principals, angles of attack, effective footwork and strategy, mindset and especially, weapons.

Most FMA's are principal based. You can defend yourself effectively within months with hard work. Find a good teacher.

Generally, for a smaller person to defend themselves effectively, a lot more work is required. Find an instructor that is going to adjust whatever system you use, to you. Maintain an aggressive mindset and work hard.

For what it's worth. Some FMA's are taught as TMA's some are not. Find and instructor that will teach you what you want to learn. A good instructor will be able to adjust to your particular need.

One size does not fit all.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:44 AM   #29
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john_mccollum, Arnis, Escrima and Kali all have similarities. All use weapons. You will find an overlap for each. Kali is the oldest of the styles and there are many different flavors of it as well. Modern Arnis is Remy Presas' style. Very good stuff. I'm not sure where you are, but if you are in the Washington state area, look up Datu Kelly Worden. or check him out on the web. Amazing guy and a great teacher.

-Brian
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:01 PM   #30
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Krav is great, but I dunno if a 5', 95# krav blackbelt would be able to put off a determined dude the size/built of a linebacker without the aid of a big gun. Sad to say, but that's life...size is a huge advantage (pardon the pun).

Still though, most perps ain't all that determined and are looking for an easy victim.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:54 PM   #31
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I don't think that the women who sign up for Krav Maga classes for self-defense reasons would be real happy to hear that the only thing they will be able to get from Krav is \"well, if someone attacks me I just wont make it easy\".
I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with that statement as a generality that applies to all (or even most) women. A couple of years ago, Vivian Cannon did an NPR interview and something she said really stuck with me. She said, \"My goal is to surprise anybody. I may not be able to win every fight I'm in, but they're certainly going to be sorry they picked me.\" I liked it so much that I wrote it down in the front of my notebook so that I wouldn't forget it. It's absolutely absurd for me (5'1\" on a good day) to think that I could defeat any attacker or win every fight. What I *have* developed by taking Krav are tools that give me options, and those options make it more likely that I'll come out alive and (hopefully) unhurt. Do I want to win every fight? Sure I do! Am I going to go into any fight with the attitude that I'm going to win? Damn right, I am! That having been said, a little dose of reality never hurt anyone - I expect WAY more from the women that come to class than the men. I expect them to work harder and be more aggressive and accept the fact that yes, they are likely to be outmatched if they are attacked. Reality sometimes sucks, and the reality is that you have to take advantage of everything that you've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by \"Serrada36\"
Generally, for a smaller person to defend themselves effectively, a lot more work is required. Find an instructor that is going to adjust whatever system you use, to you. Maintain an aggressive mindset and work hard.
Truer words were never spoken. :) When I first started Krav almost three years ago, I realized on day one that I was going to have to train twice as hard and twice as often as most of the people in my class to keep up. I completely lucked out getting an instructor that never gave up on me and was immune to any excuses of the \"that will never work for me because I'm not tall/strong enough\" nature.
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:46 PM   #32
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Okay, I haven't been a jerk for a good month now, streaks over.

What the hell is going on here? Since when have we started fighting 300 lb linebackers? First of all, some of your mindsets are way off.

\"Krav is great, but I dunno if a 5', 95# krav blackbelt would be able to put off a determined dude the size/built of a linebacker without the aid of a big gun. Sad to say, but that's life...\"

Before you even get into an altercation, the best rule of thumb is don't be there. Don't hang out where things have a high apptitude to go wrong,i.e. bars,clubs. Next you need situational/environmental awareness whenever your awake. If you notice a potential threat, you need to look for pre-contact cues, or use intuative acuity. If it escalates from there, you have to look at body language and read intentions. All else fails, you use the environment, and every tool at your disposal to go home safely.

And last time I checked, the most important tenant of Krav was get home safely. In essence, you do whatever you have to do at the time to neutralize the threat. If you need to shoot, stab, mame, maul, disfigure, cowtow, fake compliance, castrate, then that's what you do.
Forget about Krav, FMA, TMA blackbelts, if you don't understand that, regardless of the system your in, then you've already reached the victim mentality.

And using that same mentality of defending against someone bigger, effects everyone in Krav, not just the 95 pounder. Because there is always someone bigger. That factor can't be controlled, but others can. Like, most importantly being first to attack.

There are no magic pills, just mental and physical will to survive.
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:08 PM   #33
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You're setting up a false dichotomy. Unless your sole purpose in responding is to prove me wrong, you know as well as I do that there are more than just those two choices. Yes, some training is better than none. And yes, it does depend. The two are not mutually exclusive, and it is inconsistent to try to set up a scenario where they are.

In general, those who are exposed to fighting arts will do better at self-defense then those who are not. More specifically, this generalityis affected by factors, the primary difference in my opinion is the quality of instruction. Let me know if this phrasing is acceptable to you.

Your first criticism of my #2 point said this: \" You don't have to \"master\" Krav Maga. It's a principle-based system that is integrated. \" I agree. I never said you had to master Krav Maga. I do believe that, IFyou desire to master Krav Maga (understanding fully the application of kmX, LEO and military training, women's self-defense for sexual assault situations, fitness certification, as well as full dynamics of multiple attackers, gun defenses, as well as emotional/psychological components of physical confrontation, verbal de-escalation) then yes, it would take years to master it. That has nothing to do with TMA's. I was just stating my opinion. Let me know if this phrasing is acceptable to you, or if the relevency of my posts is something that you want to check over one at a time to make sure it fits your standard.

By the way, you said this \"You don't have to wait until some mythical rank is achieved before you start learning application or \"the good stuff\". My students walk away from every KM class with something that is useful to them TODAY--not something useful after 5000 reps and 7 belt levels. \"

I agree to this as well, and I teach every day to this effect. That's why, with 15 years of TMA experience and 7 years of TMA instruction, I left it all, started over with Krav, and haven't looked back.

You also said this \"Please explain to me how #3 is relevant to teaching a 45 year old accountant skills and tactics that will enhance the likelihood of them getting home safely at night.\" You are the first person to bring up a 45 year old accountant, and you're questioning me about relevency?

All I said was that it was proven in battle. That you can't dispute. History confirms it. You changed the subject halfway through the conversation from battle-testedness to self-defense application.

So, unless you want to hear my description of how knights killing dragons has reality-based self-defense application, I'm out of this conversation.
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:28 PM   #34
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Okay, I haven't been a jerk for a good month now, streaks over.
Andre, one term short of passive-agressive. 8)
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:32 PM   #35
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Medicine can't cure what I've got ;-)
To be honest, I'm overtly aggressive.
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:42 PM   #36
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I agree that it would take a while and many repetitions to truly get proficient at Krav Maga. Just look at Darren or Amir demonstrate a defense and then watch a guy do it, who's only been doing it for a couple of weeks. There'll be a huge diffrence in the way the technique is performed. The new guy will look slower, a lot less clean. While what he knows may be enough to save his life if he is lucky - some people have no martial arts training at all and are still able to survive a violent confrontation - taking the time to truly learn how to do the defense correctly and to get really good at it will certainly improve his chances of survival should he ever need to use these skills. So, yes, KM will teach you something useful right away, but to get as good as you can possibly be at performing these techniques will take a lot more than just a few classes.
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:03 PM   #37
 
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\"Why, because they get together in a park, with sticks, in a duel-type set-up, and beat the snot out of each other? How does that, in and of itself, make for a successful self-defense system?\"

That doesn't mean its an effective self defense system in and of itself (not exactly what I suggested), but it does tell you its an effective system for duel-type set up with weapons (mostly sticks, also knives, staves, garden hoses etc) possibly in a part or garage. You could argue that that also does not prove anything, but it does suggest it- why would you train in something that didn't help you when the pressure was on and someone was trying to beat you with a weapon? If you read up on some of their history, it was started, at least in part, to pressure test martial arts techniques and training methods, basically MMA with weapons. They would have matches with kobudo guys with tonfas and other weapon arts- sword people with wooden swords, etc. They eventually arrived at a point where kali and krabi krabong were successful (effective) as far as technique and training method (and at some point jujutsu was added because sometimes it goes to the ground). You can always argue that any sort of fighting can't be proven as an effective form of self defense without actual proof of its use in real self defense, but I believe that full contact matches, armed or unarmed, are fairly effective means of testing them. The blocking methods work against an unrehearsed full power committed swing from an opponent- its been shown in these matches. That's just one example, but you can see what I mean.
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:37 PM   #38
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Ryan and Kurtuan,

I acknowlege and agree that most of the time criminals are looking for victims. But if we train to succeed under that assumption then we are training for the best case scenario. As martial artists we should train for worst case scenarios:

Here is a sample of \"over the top types\" from Eugene Sockut's book Secrets of Street Survival Israeli Style

1) The professional criminal

2) The rank amateur

3) The psychopath

4) The drug addict

Others that seem unlikely here in the states but are listed in the book are:

1) State sponsored terrorists

2) Cult killings

The book is a collection of anecdotes with attendant lessons learned, from Sockut's LEO, and military career. I recommend it for the stout of heart. Definitely not something I'd read as a bedtime story. Long and short of it: train for worst case and best case will come off much better.
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:47 PM   #39
esiley
 
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This thread actually does give one hope...no ad-hominem attacks, no third-party marketing, a frank discussion. :)

Ryan - You are absolutely correct that boxing, kickboxing, and MMA are sports. The thing I have noticed is that every single one of our Krav Maga students and instructors who take competitive boxing, muay thai, and MMA matches get better at Krav Maga, build better fighting spirit, and are able to improvise and deal with pressure better during drills.

My point was this: weapon skills from a teaching and practice standpoint are not really different. The learning path is the same - Solo command and mastery, focused drills with a partner, and then sparring and scenarios against a resisting opponent...just like I have seen with Krav Maga, BJJ, and all the other good stuff.

Can you ever get to 100% of \"street\" or self-defense? Not without hurting yourself and training partners, no. Can you get pretty damn close? I think you can...and it's our job to do so. There is always the element of consent in practice, whether it's self-defense or sport.

I agree this isn't the end-all be-all, but am more worried about no hard sparring than sportification.
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Old 01-19-2006, 07:11 PM   #40
Ryan
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Jeff, sorry, I thought we were talking about self defense (what forum is this?) :roll:

We could do this all day, so I'll agree to disagree.
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