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BACKGROUND
My background is mainly Wing Chun (10yr) but have also trained Aikedo (2yrs), Fencing (1yr), Judo (2yr).The Wing Chun I do has a very results driven practical approach and so when I recently started to look into Krav Maga I find that it is almost an exact mirror of the Wing Chun we do (we even use the same locks 🙂 ). But I like it a lot. Even though 99% of it is exactly what I have trained already (thats a good thing, a good idea is a good idea:) ) every so often there is something a little different that looks worth trying. I also like the results based approach. So I thought I’d pick your brains on a question….
THE QUESTION
Almost all knife defences I see, even in the Krav maga, seem to defend against very uniform large and lunging moves. The defence seems mostly very Ju-Jitsu like; flowing, grabbing and turning and locking a joint. The problem I find is that this works fantastically when someone lunges in, but not against the type of knife fighting we do (very very fast, basically wing chun with a knife).So here is an example of the scenario I need to solve:
Opponent with knife moves in makes no committed attacks but simply aims to dart in and cut whatever is closest hand leg, anything. Opponent slashes forward extremely quickly cutting defenders hands and wrists. Opponent flips to reverse grip for final kill, uses a series of extremely fast hammer type blows up the arm disabling defences as he goes, final kill shot to collar and neck.
What is required is a defence that works as fast as a jab defence against someone who never extends, never lunges and never straightens their arm. Very very quick moves. I am putting together some defences but does anyone have any ideas?
ps
(I know fighting a trained knife fighter may not happen every day but a slashing manic moves pretty fast too 😉 ).Re: Realistic Knife Defence
Pull out your gun & shoot him just like Indiana Jones!
On knife threats – KM looks at real world incidents & distills from this information what makes sense in terms of defending in an instinctive and logical way, against the most likely scenarios people might encounter..
The typical scenario & this is borne out by mucho CCTV footage, is that knife attack scenarios tend to be more of a frenzied ambush and not battling with a trained bladed arts person…
The general idea would be block & counter, maybe disarm if you’ve got your Chuck Norris aftershave on, get to safety. And know that a knife attack is a very bad situation in which one stands a good chance of getting cut or worse – even with a 150 Dan black belt in KM. As well, the longer you remain in the vicinity of a knife trying to block & do ‘battle’ – your ‘survival’ chances plummet…
If I would spot the uber-knife-master flashing his moves to carve me up, I would try to run away very fast…
There’s some knife threads here:
https://kravmaga.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4324&highlight=knife
https://kravmaga.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3949
And these clips too:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/266722…_knife_attack/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suNKWwPnkJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlb6qGyblR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9q1IElo8v4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOUn5qI6Ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4KROpdUkrM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=778010752e
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5bfb9ec743
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17f_1173654313
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
Really, if it were me I’d be thinking how to create distance between myself & blade-man..throw something at him to disrupt his slicing groove.. maybe picking up a chair or bar stool to perform my best lion tamer impersonation then make like a roadrunner off into the sunset…
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
quote Chocolate Soldier:Pull out your gun & shoot him just like Indiana Jones!On knife threats – KM looks at real world incidents & distills from this information what makes sense in terms of defending in an instinctive and logical way, against the most likely scenarios people might encounter..
The typical scenario & this is borne out by mucho CCTV footage, is that knife attack scenarios tend to be more of a frenzied ambush and not battling with a trained bladed arts person…
The general idea would be block & counter, maybe disarm if you’ve got your Chuck Norris aftershave on, get to safety. And know that a knife attack is a very bad situation in which one stands a good chance of getting cut or worse – even with a 150 Dan black belt in KM. As well, the longer you remain in the vicinity of a knife trying to block & do ‘battle’ – your ‘survival’ chances plummet…
If I would spot the uber-knife-master flashing his moves to carve me up, I would try to run away very fast…
Thanks for posting all those links 🙂
I have been watching the videos and they are very disturbing. I find learning martial arts has always been fun, but I think really thinking through about how knives are used has a very dark side. Like guns they make death far to quick and cheap, snuffed out in a flick of the hand.
I think the Krav Maga knife defences are interesting and am going to do a good bit or training with them to make an informed comment.
I have the 5 DVD set of Moni Isaac commando krav maga:
http://www.commandokravmaga.com
and have been watching and trying his knife defences. I am also trying the methods used by Spetznatz and SAS.( Can only find SAS stuff from 1970 so far so anyone find any modern stuff let me know).I will keep you posted on what I find out as I try to sort out what works and what doesn’t
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
(Serious answer)Against someone who’s quick with a knife, you’ll probably find yourself chasing the arm in order to control it unless you do something to violently disrupt their motion first, and this is very iffy without some sort of weapon of your own. I don’t think wing chun is the best answer because of the tendency to “hang out” in trapping range, a range that doesn’t really exist for more than a few seconds tops, and because of this a tendency to not have extremely active footwork, something very important here.
(non serious answer) I guess you could always side kick your knife wielding attacker to the ground like I’m doing in my avatar.
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
Good Posts. Sometimes I will do 360/inside drills with multi attacker and sneak one attacker the rubber knife with instructions to slice at will. Usually stuck in OODA, the defender only recognizes the knife after about 5 or 10 stabs-if then. Bad stuff. Run like hell if any opportunity AT ALL to do so. If you have to defend because of your children or such-I believe redirecting/control/distancing as much as possible- BUT counter and attack for all you are worth. You must get attackers mind off killing you. A good illustration is the “Mexican subway shooting” video posted. The attacker never had to think about anything except gun retention and shooting. Again good post and things I ponder as well. You can find some pretty good insight on this in some of Rory Millers blogs. (Wrote excellent book Meditations on Violence)
Jeff
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
I would think a block (if possible), control and counter with with flurry of hits/knees/elbows then put/throw do anything to put him on ground and escape.
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
The context and scenario you present bring up a number of important questions and considerations. I have a couple of thoughts on this, although I’m not sure they are Krav Maga, or even technique, specific.
First, I’m a firm believer in training for the odds; I will train myself most often to deal with the most likely situations and scenarios. We don’t live in a Kung Fu movie (much to my occasional dismay), and it is my belief that I’m am much more likely to encounter a naive attacker than I am a well-trained knife fighter, so I am going to train accordingly. So, to your point, I would say that the large slashing or thrusting moves are going to be the most common types of attacks, especially as initial attacks. As an example, I believe for a level 1 student, the 360 defense is more important for self defense than inside defenses are. Why? In my experience you are more likely to encounter a naive attacker throwing a big ugly haymaker than you are well-trained fighter who throws a great straight punch. Both defense are important, but if I’m having to prioritize. . .
Second, I’m not entirely convinced that many of the fluid complex attacks that I think you are envisioning are that likely to occur in a real-life situation, even for a well-trained knife fighter. When we are put under stress in a violent situation, most people are reduced to caveman when it comes to physical prowess and agility. While not always true, assuming all that beautiful and fluid form and complex tactical decision making is not something I’m comfortable with (which is why I train in a system that doesn’t require either). An accessible and well-documented example of this is with Filipino stick fighters. In a vacuum, stick fighters have a beautiful system of both attacks and defenses that are awe-inspiring in their precision, speed, and complexity. But, any time I’ve ever seen even the best trained in these system get put in the pressure cooker and have to bring these skills to bear, it looks like two cavemen with sticks whacking each other with wild abandon. Again, these are my observations, but it brings into question how well these techniques hold up in high stress situations.
Lastly, it is never my intention to stand there in an altercation and exchange blows with an armed assailant. Whether it becomes reality or not, after the initial attack, it is my intention to become such an overwhelming and violent force that they will not have the opportunity to disengage from me to start all the antics you described. I see many of the knife defenses in Krav Maga as a means of dealing with that initial attack. Once that attack is made, our job is then to defend and provide a solid enough counter attack that we take their minds off of their training and get them back on their heels and into caveman mode. As an initial attack, there are only so many ways that a person can thrust, hack, slash, chop, etc. It is my opinion that KM has done a pretty god job of covering those bases.
I apologize if none of this seems like an answer. I guess it may be more of a presentation of some alternative philosophies in thinking about your concerns.
-Jesse
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
quote CLFMak:(Serious answer)Against someone who’s quick with a knife, you’ll probably find yourself chasing the arm in order to control it unless you do something to violently disrupt their motion first, and this is very iffy without some sort of weapon of your own. I don’t think wing chun is the best answer because of the tendency to “hang out” in trapping range, a range that doesn’t really exist for more than a few seconds tops, and because of this a tendency to not have extremely active footwork, something very important here.Yes the Wing Chun footwork is only for closing and changing angles at Wing Chun range (i.e from contact), it doesn’t move in and out quickly. It is for this reason in our class we teach Boxing footwork and strikes alongside the Wing Chun footwork right from the start. This also helps for 2 on 1 training both for the person being attacked to move quickly and fluidly, and so the attackers are versed in more street style footwork and attacks to make it more realistic.
For the fast forward and backward needed for knife defence and extreme distances I have been using a combination of boxing and fencing footwork for ranging in and out.
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
try Pekiti Tirsia Kali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHFx0xGj3L0
I’m probably going to do that when I get bored with KM. I too get a little annoyed with how the KM knife and stick defenses are always demonstrated with an attacker over exaggerating his attack. Sure it’s good practice, but I tend to imagine an attacker attacking me the way I would attack someone else. But hey, I’m only in level 2, so maybe I’m speaking out of turn.
-c
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
quote PooDigger:try Pekiti Tirsia Kalihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHFx0xGj3L0
I’m probably going to do that when I get bored with KM. I too get a little annoyed with how the KM knife and stick defenses are always demonstrated with an attacker over exaggerating his attack. Sure it’s good practice, but I tend to imagine an attacker attacking me the way I would attack someone else. But hey, I’m only in level 2, so maybe I’m speaking out of turn.
-c
have you seen real stick fighting or real sparring with full speed? they don’t move like the people in this demo… its more of a gross movement of big swings. google dog brothers as see some of their videos and see how people work when its for real. You will rarely see if any type of flowing trapping movement like they do in these demos.
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
This post below is great – excellent thoughts & perspective on the subject biglou!
I would add this to the equation: consider that when the shizz goes down, the chances are high those involved will not have just done a 10-15 minute warmup, thus adding to the ‘dance of the hippos’ element just that much more.
quote biglou502:The context and scenario you present bring up a number of important questions and considerations. I have a couple of thoughts on this, although I’m not sure they are Krav Maga, or even technique, specific.First, I’m a firm believer in training for the odds; I will train myself most often to deal with the most likely situations and scenarios. We don’t live in a Kung Fu movie (much to my occasional dismay), and it is my belief that I’m am much more likely to encounter a naive attacker than I am a well-trained knife fighter, so I am going to train accordingly. So, to your point, I would say that the large slashing or thrusting moves are going to be the most common types of attacks, especially as initial attacks. As an example, I believe for a level 1 student, the 360 defense is more important for self defense than inside defenses are. Why? In my experience you are more likely to encounter a naive attacker throwing a big ugly haymaker than you are well-trained fighter who throws a great straight punch. Both defense are important, but if I’m having to prioritize. . .
Second, I’m not entirely convinced that many of the fluid complex attacks that I think you are envisioning are that likely to occur in a real-life situation, even for a well-trained knife fighter. When we are put under stress in a violent situation, most people are reduced to caveman when it comes to physical prowess and agility. While not always true, assuming all that beautiful and fluid form and complex tactical decision making is not something I’m comfortable with (which is why I train in a system that doesn’t require either). An accessible and well-documented example of this is with Filipino stick fighters. In a vacuum, stick fighters have a beautiful system of both attacks and defenses that are awe-inspiring in their precision, speed, and complexity. But, any time I’ve ever seen even the best trained in these system get put in the pressure cooker and have to bring these skills to bear, it looks like two cavemen with sticks whacking each other with wild abandon. Again, these are my observations, but it brings into question how well these techniques hold up in high stress situations.
Lastly, it is never my intention to stand there in an altercation and exchange blows with an armed assailant. Whether it becomes reality or not, after the initial attack, it is my intention to become such an overwhelming and violent force that they will not have the opportunity to disengage from me to start all the antics you described. I see many of the knife defenses in Krav Maga as a means of dealing with that initial attack. Once that attack is made, our job is then to defend and provide a solid enough counter attack that we take their minds off of their training and get them back on their heels and into caveman mode. As an initial attack, there are only so many ways that a person can thrust, hack, slash, chop, etc. It is my opinion that KM has done a pretty god job of covering those bases.
I apologize if none of this seems like an answer. I guess it may be more of a presentation of some alternative philosophies in thinking about your concerns.
-Jesse
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
quote leejam99:have you seen real stick fighting or real sparring with full speed? they don’t move like the people in this demo… its more of a gross movement of big swings. google dog brothers as see some of their videos and see how people work when its for real. You will rarely see if any type of flowing trapping movement like they do in these demos.I would be very interested to see this kind of thing with a knife. Although it seems sensible that stick/machete moves translate to the knife, they don’t translate directly. That is why I’m trying to concentrate on the knife specifically, or find others that have.
Re: Realistic Knife Defence
From what my brother has shown me, Kali stick fighting translates very well with knife fighting, most importantly, the foot work. They also train with swords and spears, though I don’t really find that very applicable on the streets of the United States. The knife fighting looks fun. A bit complicated compared to KM but still fun.
-c
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