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I recently attended a LE/Military-only close-quarters combat class. The primary focus was h2h and weapon transistions.
As part of the h2h we worked pistol defenses/strips. A common factor that I have noticed at this and other LE/Military training that I have attended (other than Krav LE) is that there is a serious hesitation to embrace, or even try, the 1-hand pistol defenses.
I have been told by a multitude of people is that they are more comfortable/confident getting 2 hands on the gun/gun hand than doing it with just 1 hand.
There are 3 common points that others make when stating their preference for 2 hand grabs:
1: They feel that they have more control of the attackers weapon/hands
2: They feel that they can strike effectively w/headbutts and kicks while still controlling the gun
3: They feel it’s too easy to miss with only 1 handIn my humble opinion there are 3 distinct advantages to using 1 hand:
1. It’s much easieer to follow the gun hand back to the attackers body and pin it to their body since their natural reaction is going to be to retract the gun as soon as they realize you are grabbing the gun.
2. As soon as I deliver the counter-punch(s), then I can draw my pistol should I be carrying one at that time. This is especially true is my attacker is still standing.
3. With only a small amount of practice time I believe that the 1-hand defense is faster and harder for the attacker to detect.Now both the 1-hand and 2-hand defenses essentially share the RCAT principle, which is good. Also I don’t believe that knowing how to do both types is a bad thing. This is especially true since intel reports have been showing the LE community that prisoners have been practicing the 2 hand gun grabs while being incarcerated.
I am curious as to the thoughts of others on this subject and if any of you have run into this same issue?
Be safe and prevail always!!
I think our one hand gun grab works, because we anticipate the attacker’s reaction. He’ll pull the gun back and as I’m going with him, my fist is right there to strike. The strike, at the very least, should surprise and stun him and that ought to give me enough time to then get that second hand on there for a more secure grip and continue fighting should he still be struggling.
I think in all our one-handed gun techniques, the one hand grab only last for a short moment in time, then, after a quick counter that should stun the opponent, the second hand does come in to secure and take away the weapon. As the attacker’s natural reaction is anticipated, the risk of having the gun in only one hand is only minimal I believe. We know what motion he’ll most likely make and it actually helps the defense. He pulls me close, so I can (unbeknownst to him) deliver that strong punch. Also, as you said, the initial motion of grabbing the gun may be harder for the assailant to detect, another advantage.
If we grabbed the gun with only one hand for long periods of time, then maybe it would be a problem, but the way the defense is made, I believe it works well.
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GiantkillerI personally prefer the tedhniques shown on the Krav segment of the Human Weapon. But, that’s just my preference.
I learned the two handed grab take away in another system and feel pretty proficient with it speed and control wise. However given my druthers Iíd RATHER do single hand control and simultaneous counter then disarm.
Previous to that I had learned two handed control / take down which did not work out so well for me in a multiple attacker scenario. I was able to remove the initial threat from the first attacker in fact it resulted in a broken arm. However while taking him down and executing the move his partners arrived one striking me from behind. During the sweep I had moved off angle and as I swung him downward it turned my back in the direction of the additional attackers. I was so focused on the ìoh sh1tî I wasnít even aware there was more then one guy.
My home was ransacked and I was left hog tied with duct tape in my garage. The authorities were able to acquire the initial attacker at the hospital while treating his broken arm.
At the time of my home invasion I already had multiple degrees in traditional martial arts none of it was reality based. In retrospect had I known then what I know now things would have gone differently. Or so I would like to imagine.
I consider myself extremely lucky to be alive things could have gone much much worse.
I guess the moral to the story and the reason Iím sharing it is that you never know what your going to do or how your going to react until the situation presents itself.
In the meantime we train and hope we never have to test the techniques.
Of course, I am going to be a big 1 hand takeaway technique advocate. With a ton of practice they all work good, even Jackie Chan stuff! Without much practice you end up with much bigger body movement with the two hand tech. as you kinda lurch forward. Of course body movement equals telegraphing equals a bullet hole in you somewhere. The big thing with 1 and 2 hand is where the gun is being held. Have your practice gunman back up a little, just out of reach. Who says the gunman is always exactly x amount of inches from you? If that doesn’t open your eyes I don’t know what will. 1 hand you just turn your body and reach the weapon, two hand can’t do that, you really show the gunman that it’s coming.
Brad, as far as liking the hand gun tech’s on the Human Weapon – I thought that was the show’s one big weakness. Most of them didn’t include an attack to get the attackers mind off of shooting you. The one where the line went straight up looked like a good way to get your brains blown out. Didn’t have much use for any of them.
My .02
Wow, CJ’s Dad, home invasion? 😯 That’s pretty scary. Were you alone or with your wife and son?
When the second guy hit you, were you knocked out by the strike? Or did he have a weapon as well and you just decided it was too risky to keep on fighting? How many were there altogether? Sounds like you’re lucky to be alive and that they didn’t shoot you in retaliation for breaking that one guy’s arm.
Fighting more than one guy with a gun would of course be risky regardless of the technique employed. But at least the KM technique keeps you on your feet and if you practice it, you could do it relatively quickly, hopefully ending up with the weapon, so you could then use it on the first and maybe other attackers as well.
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GiantkillerIt all happened very quickly, I was hit I went down I was hit several times more then started getting tied up. I didnít have time to make any decisions. It was all a blur Iíve ran the scenario in my head a million times, what should I have done etc. I was pretty traumatized by it. I actually quit training for a long time because of it.
The police determined there were 6 in this group that were hitting homes during the day in the Northridge area.
CJ wasnít born yet it was over 15 years ago. When my then fiancÈe arrived the house was already crawling with law enforcement.
Incidentally I just taught gun from the front a few minutes ago and Cav was in class I wonder if he will chime in this thread.
Cav sounds like the kind of guy who could just squeeze the muzzle shut with his hand strength… 😆
Home invasion with six armed attackers seems like impossible odds, no matter what kind of technique you know. Thankfully, you weren’t seriously hurt. If you were getting hit and tied up at the same time, I guess there wasn’t much you could have done at that moment in time. I’m wondering though, in a slightly different situation where, let’s say, you fight one attacker, then the others come in and are armed, ordering you to the ground with the intention of tying you up. It seems risky to comply in that case, because once you are tied up you are completely at their mercy. On the other hand, if you choose to fight, you may get killed right away. Tough decision. 🙁
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GiantkillerHey all,
Two-handed techniques can work. We do them in various situations, although we always send one hand earlier because the movement is less detectable. But even our two-handed techniques follow the principle of bursting forward and driving toward the gunman.
One of the main reasons for doing the one-handed technique from the front is that it is versatile. It works at a number of angles, high and low, and it works when the gunman’s other hand is grabbing your shirt, or shielding you, or otherwise in the way.
The one-handed technique also works at a greater distance because your body turns forward as you reach with one hand. When you reach with both hands your reach is shortened.
Again, that’s not to say there aren’t some good 2-handed techniques. We just opt for simplicity and versatility.
OldKrav Dude.
\”Brad, as far as liking the hand gun tech’s on the Human Weapon – I thought that was the show’s one big weakness. Most of them didn’t include an attack to get the attackers mind off of shooting you. The one where the line went straight up looked like a good way to get your brains blown out. Didn’t have much use for any of them.\”I agree somewhat with you. The two hand technique that Jason and Bill were doing was not done correctly, the way I learned it anyway. They were taking too long to do the disarm. When done properly, you can be out of the line of fire and have control of the weapon in a second, maybe less – before the attacker can even think of pulling the trigger. I’m not saying the attacker won’t get off a shot, but if he does, you are out of the line of fire.
I have done the KM one hand defense too, and like it. However, I have arthritis in my left hand (thumb) and sometimes had trouble grabbing the gun and pushing it into the attacker’s body and maintaining control while executing the strikes to the head and then removing the weapon from the attacker. For my situation, I just found the two hand technique easier.
I’ll admit, I was disappointed in the way the technique was demonstrated on the Human Weapon. It didn’t give the technique justice.
That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it! 😆 😆 😆
\”They were taking too long to do the disarm. When done properly, you can be out of the line of fire and have control of the weapon in a second, maybe less – before the attacker can even think of pulling the trigger.\”
Brad, to piggyback on John’s comments, this defense is a bigger movement, which gives the gunman the opportunity for more reaction time. If we extrapolate further, what happens if the gunman detects the movement, and pulls the gun back? With this defense, you have not bettered your position, and you are not thinking about hitting the gunman (nor have you done anything to the gunman.)
I see this same problem with the CKM technique I’ve seen for gun from behind (disclaimer: I have no firsthand training experience with any CKM practioner.) This defense begins very much like the KM defense, but it relies on securing the wrist immediately following the redirection, and applying a joint lock. If the gunman pulls the gun back, you’ve missed your opportunity.
Just my opinion.
Re:
quote \”CJs Dad\:It all happened very quickly, I was hit I went down I was hit several times more then started getting tied up. I didnít have time to make any decisions. It was all a blur Iíve ran the scenario in my head a million times, what should I have done etc. I was pretty traumatized by it. I actually quit training for a long time because of it.The police determined there were 6 in this group that were hitting homes during the day in the Northridge area.
CJ wasnít born yet it was over 15 years ago. When my then fiancÈe arrived the house was already crawling with law enforcement.
Wow, that sounds like a horrible story, and I’m glad your okay after all of that to help the rest of us.
quote \”CJs Dad\:Incidentally I just taught gun from the front a few minutes ago and Cav was in class I wonder if he will chime in this thread.Thanks for teaching it to us Sean 🙂
It’s great to hear all the perspectives in this thread. I really enjoyed learning the one hand technique in class. Hearing the description of the two handed technique, I feel that a one handed technique might be better for somebody like me for a few reasons:
1) My broad chest is an easy target and the one handed technique would allow me to blade my body in an easier way
2) It’s hard to be discreet when your larger, and the one handed technique would cause me to telescope less.
3) I would feel that I would get a lot more power from my punch since my off shoulder (the one that isn’t holding the gun against the attacker) would be cocked back with the one handed technique.
In class my partner and I tried very hard to resist having the gun taken away and despite not worrying about a broken finger or being stunned with the counter-attack, we had a very difficult time.
Does the two hand technique offer an advantage in stopping the revolver spindle (?) from spinning or the slide from operating? The one handed technique is supposed to offer that too, right?
One thing that I was curious about, while not hand-to-hand, is that once you have the gun, and you’ve prevented the slide from operating, how one unjams the gun? I really know very little about firearms.
I think you just pull the slide back and that should chamber a new round. Not 100% sure, just been to the range three times. 🙂
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GiantkillerRe:
quote \”Giant Killer\:Cav sounds like the kind of guy who could just squeeze the muzzle shut with his hand strength… 😆Wow, the things that happen when CJ’s dad kids around 🙂 Somebody could work a \”Can’t Buy me Love\” tactic into self-defense, have people too frightened to attack you 😆
/me puts on a serious voice
I need to get new grip exercisers, mine are worn out😀
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