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I have never heard of this guy. Some of the positions are the same as we train in Krav Maga but the take aways are not even close. They look effective/cool but aren’t naturally instinctive and would probably take lots of practice to become proficient.
Wow – I’ll be scanning Fark.com to await the story about the tragic accidential discharge that will soon befall that outfit. Those guys are kooks!
I grant you that some of the techniques look good, but holy smokes, use a red gun!
Or at least use those yellow plastic rods that you have to take the barrel out of the gun, put the rod in the barrel, then reassemble the gun. At least then there is no chance of an accidental discharge if a loaded magazine somehow ends up in the gun because a round can’t be loaded in the chamber. Still seems like he could sping for a red gun if he is going do a lot of these seminars.
Don’t you think that training with a real gun adds to the fear element to make training more realistic?
It is pretty funny when you show someone a real gun that is empty and they still are scared to death it is aiming towards them.
I don’t like the techniques here, but if your to afraid to train w/ a real gun knowing it is empty, then how do you think you will do against a real gun knowing it’s loaded?
Had to be shown. 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
Only have to watch it 40 seconds if you want. Probably have already seen it tho.Funny or not, I’ve seen people get the crap beat out of them for play pointing an \”unloaded\” m16 at another soldier. Both parties need to be on board for that to happen. I wouldn’t be too friendly about having an unloaded gun pointed at me for the simple reason I find it irresponsible. Training weapons are fine, the skill learned from using a plastic gun in training will compliment the adrenaline of a real situation.
Plus, I’m just not willing to accept someone else’s word the gun has been cleared without clearing it properly myself… each and every time that gun leaves my sight or changes hands. If someone pointed a rifle at me in the military, it had better have a blank adapter on the end of it.
If someone likes the idea of using a real weapon for training purposes, more power to them. For me it really doesn’t add anything to the scenario other than the worry that I’m going to be accidentally shot because of someone’s carelessness. Just my opinion.
All Guns are Always Loaded, Always. Period.
We’ve all trained with real weapons, but you check them clear (as they did in the video) then you put a piece of tape over the receiver and ejection port to show it’s been checked and so you can’t accidently load it.Training with a operable weapon that’s been clearly checked and always in your site adds no more fear than a red or blue gun IMHO. If you want to inject fear use simmunition 😯 (with all the protective gear of course) Nothing like a little pain stimulation upon failure to get the blood flowing!
Now, training with a operating weapon ON A LIVE RANGE with other live weapons just like it and ammo floating about is rather Darwinian….
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quote \”JamesH\:Training with a operable weapon that’s been clearly checked and always in your site adds no more fear than a red or blue gun IMHO. If you want to inject fear use simmunition 😯 (with all the protective gear of course) Nothing like a little pain stimulation upon failure to get the blood flowing!So the main objective of the drills with weapons is to create fear? I could even see the use of a cap gun where the person defending can hear the shot and see where the gun is when it makes the noise. I just don’t see the value of training with a real gun or the possibility of pain being inflicted. We had MILES gear in the infantry… laser tag stuff that beeped when you were shot. The goal was to not get shot by better applying the methods used to keep yourself safe (cover and concealment, movement, supportive fire etc).
Bringing a real gun in class for training takeaways just seems like someone trying to be gung ho and show off their pistol. I’d rather see the class meet at a gun range and learn proper saftey methods on real guns before they start trying to wrestle them from others in class who have never held one.
I’m confident in my ability and safety around firearms… but that stops when someone in class who has never held one is all of a sudden pointing it at me. Sorry, that would be a deal breaker for me. I’m glad those wanting to train with real weapons don’t write policy.
Again, just my opinion.
These guys look far more responsable than this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghlvfvx_6JMFirst of all, I would never point a gun at someone without them checking it.
I was brief with my statment, but I guess I should have been more clear.
If you are going to train with a real gun then absolutely check, double check, even triple check it. …Then I really don’t know what the problem would be.As far as the fear aspect, how can you not see that creating fear while training adds to the training?
Hmmm, I kind of see what you’re saying and I do believe adding fear to the training can be useful, but maybe there are better (and safer) ways to create fear? At some point, if you check the weapon over and over again and really know it’s empty, maybe it will take away the fear factor. If you’re not sure it’s empty, the fear will rise, but then why take the chance, just for training purposes?
Maybe training with air guns or other, non-lethal weapons could create fear as well, because it would still hurt if you were to get shot with one, yet it would not create serious injury and so it would still be safe. Better than a real empty gun in that regard, because now there is a real danger of feeling pain if your defense doesn’t work.
We use a Shocknife for knife defenses sometimes and even though it does not cut or penetrate the body, it still adds that fear factor, because, first of all, you can see and hear lots of sparks going off and also, if it touches your body, it really hurts. If the blade slides across your arm, it feels like an actual cut. So it adds an element of danger, but without risk of more serious injury.
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GiantkillerGuess you never did knife drills with a live knife. Common in silat. Scary shit. definately makes you aware. How about shooting while running or getting off the x? there is a difference between looking at a yellow gun and a real gun. It even feels different on the disarm. Obviously, checking and rechecking the gun is a given and no I’m not taking your word for it. Either way you know the attacker doesn’t want to put his finger on the trigger. Ouch!!
Now if you’ve been sleeping with his wife, you may not want to trust him 😆
FOF drills with airsoft, okay I’ll bite, great for shooting scenarios and getting back to point shooting. Not really an effective thing for disarm, as again I’m not stupid enough to put my finger in the trigger guard.
C, nice find on the Systema vid. I use to kind of bag on it. I have an affiliation with a group in Virginia. Focus on combat, from conditioning to application. They bring in some of the top trainers, Tom Sotis, Mark Denny and Gabe. Everyone there were non Systema believers until they worked with Sonny P. They ended up changing opinions. Its interesting Sotis(AMOK) talks highly of it and his knife stuff is rough and tumble and really good. If you see an AMOK seminar down by you, its a must. Trust me on this. Hope you doing well
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quote \”Combative Edge\:As far as the fear aspect, how can you not see that creating fear while training adds to the training?I’m a firm believer in training to the point that in any situation, reaction is nothing more than second nature. Adding fear doesn’t do anything to reinforce proper technique… speed and accuracy under pressure comes with familiar territory being conquered again and again. When adding real weapons to the mix I prefer to operate under the premise that everyone involved is both mentally stable AND properly trained in firearm safety.
But I could see where it might be fun to bring an element of realism to the scenario via the shocknife. The consequences for human error when a handgun accidentally discharges in a classroom don’t justify minute amounts of fear someone might have in a controlled situation where the students believe the weapon HAS been cleared. If everyone is operating under the understanding the weapon truely is unloaded… what fear exists? While I might believe *you* are competent enought to train with one, what about the rest of the schools? Do you blindly trust everyone enough to walk into an unknown krav school and allow their students to point a weapon at you? I think the training weapon is sufficient for classroom environments.
Personally, I’d love to see some level of handgun safety be a required portion of the class… the earlier in training the better. What good is taking a weapon from someone if you don’t know how to use it? What if the bad guy hadn’t chambered a round and left it on safe… Having just lost his pistol, now he’s going for a knife and the krav student doesn’t know why a bullet isn’t leaving the gun.
Even if it becomes a voluntary field trip where a qualified instructor agrees to meet those interested, knowing how to chamber a round, clear a jam, aim, recoil expectations, and safety lever operation could be the difference between life and death if you should ever actually need the training you’re receiving. Maybe we already do that? I don’t know what to expect in future training cuz nobody tells me lol. Most gun ranges rent a variety of weapons pretty cheap. Last time I went, my sister and wife both left the range having been hit in the head by the recoil of a .44 magnum revolver. My dad cut his hand a bit from improper holding of a 9mm when the slide came back. I tried to tell them… but now they know.
And I keep checking your website for updates… do u have time for all this debate? 😛
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quote \”unstpabl1\:Guess you never did knife drills with a live knife. Common in silat. Scary shit. definately makes you aware. How about shooting while running or getting off the x? there is a difference between looking at a yellow gun and a real gun. It even feels different on the disarm.No, never did knife drills with a live knife. In fact, I’ve never done knife drills with a rubber one either lol. Still don’t see the point (no pun intended). Is stitches going to make you a better practitioner? Guess I have a different point of view when it comes to training and safety.
Shooting while running? In combat scenarios I can see where it would be warranted. There’s no such thing as collateral damage in the private sector. You’d better have a target for those rounds. This isn’t hollywood, take cover and return fire without endangering others. 😛
Getting off the x? What’s the x? Heroin? XBox?
Feels different on the disarm: Now that I can see. But for as many different pistols as there are, and as many different sizes and weights… your technique shouldn’t change if you’re disarming them of a Desert Eagle or a banana.
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quote \”vwr32\:Getting off the x? What’s the x? Heroin? XBox?LOL…It’s a reference to moving when the SHTF and not being a static target.
Like others have said, knowing the gun is unloaded doesn’t bring the fear factor it just has the propensity to lead to an accident due to carelessness, brain fart, etc…unless you put one of the yellow plastic rods in the barell that will let the trigger engage but wont let a loaded round in to the chamber if someone did try to load it. I agree a real gun feels different than a red gun but so does a real gun that is empty vs a real gun that is loaded with a full, partial, or empty magazine. Like vwr32 said \”But for as many different pistols as there are, and as many different sizes and weights… your technique shouldn’t change if you’re disarming them of a Desert Eagle or a banana.\”
Also whether it’s a real gun, red gun, or simunitions gun I’m with unstabl1.
It’s not going to be 100% real life because if I’m holding the gun for the disarm my finger won’t be on the trigger. I like the bones in my index finger to be in perfect working order.
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