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quote \”vwr32\:quote \”Combative Edge\:If you are going to train with a real gun then absolutely check, double check, even triple check it. …Then I really don’t know what the problem would be.If a gun is cleared properly, there is no danger in discharge. The problem lies in the potential of accidents when people *think* it is unloaded, but haven’t properly cleared it. In the video I posted above, you can see the cop unload it, and even hear him off screen have someone verify that it was indeed unloaded. Then he let the slide forward and pulled the trigger while it was pointed at his leg. Bam. It’s a good thing he didn’t kill a kid sitting in the classroom. And this guy is *highly* trained in firearm safety (DEA agent I think?).
Using a real gun creates a dangerous familiarization with pointing a real weapon at people you don’t really want to shoot. Let a few students get big headed and think they’re weapons experts and pretty soon there’s an accidental shooting at a backyard cookout while demonstrating what they learned in class. Or they know squat about safety and don’t clear it properly before starting to clean it. Maybe they think it’s xtra safe and cool to have the weapons easily accessible around the house as long as they are unloaded… then thier kid accidentally shoots his brother. Or, like mike_g said… an instructor just has a brain fart and a once in a lifetime mistake becomes a life ending error.
It’s just a bad idea to teach people it’s ok to point a real, potentially operable weapon at someone for the sake of training imo. ESPECIALLY if the only training they’ve ever received in weapons excludes ANY saftey classes or time at the range. I’ve just known too many idiots that think their responsiblity for gun ownership ends at purchasing the ammo. Saftey classes? The overwhelming position on that seems to be taking safety classes is for women and kids…. real men don’t need no stinkin’ safety classes. I know a lot of people who own guns (hunters and self protection reasons), and only a few have any formal training which might suggest training from a qualified instructor concerning safety.
So let the real guns pass around class so every tom dick and harry can take turns pointing it at me? I’d be really uncomfortable with that.
Edit: Thanks for clarifying getting off the x…. wasn’t familar with that. I’m just not hip to the tactical lingo I guess. lol
Not disagreeing with what your saying V. Safety is an important issue. I would never let you point a gun at me 😆 until I chercked it annd Dry fired it a few times. I also don’t think it should be common practice. However, I have no problem with it being done to up the ante ocassionally. Fear changes everthing
Working with a live knife or sword is a scarey expirience. Again not something I’d recommend all the time, but having done it I have a lot more respect for the knife than most who train defenses of it with rubber or plastic. Even metal trainers add a pucker factor. Of course you must trust the instructor.
Force on Force training has proven over and over again, that if you stand still, aim and shoot, the way most academies teach, you will get shot/hit. Most gunfights take place at close range. Getting off the x, preferably to 11 or 1 o’clock has proven very effective. Alot of the gun footwork is being taken from kali and pressure tested. As well as being worked with through the transitions from empty hand to weapon and visa versa
Training your reactions to become second nature is a start. Then you have to test it under fire. Athletes hone and hone there skills in private, but until they get to go at game speed and get use to the stage things fall apart…ala choking. Sparing in class is way different than doing a smoker and a smoker is different than the street. All the guy is doing by using the gun is trying to bring a little more pucker factor to the training and probably be a bit dramatic for the video. It can be done safely or unsafely, depends on the person
Awhile back on this forum some Krav instructors went to the range. One shot the gun while the other one held the barrell. So they could see the effects when you grab the gun for disarms. They proved the theory as someone must’ve done before them. Now if God forbid they ever have to disarm, they know the grab will work. I don’t as I only have their word for it
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quote \”unstpabl1\:I would never let you point a gun at me 😆 until I chercked it annd Dry fired it a few times.Aw man, that’s no fun. Be a team player and just trust me so I can add MORE fear to the scenario. I want u to experience better training. 😀
quote \”unstpabl1\:Training your reactions to become second nature is a start. Then you have to test it under fire.There is no absolute way to test being under fire until you’re there. Training to enter a ring with rules and refs in no way simulates a situation where the guy playing the attacker role is actually trying to take your life. Adding the potential for accidental shooting simply isn’t worth the effort because it doesn’t come close to what it would really be like. The closest you can get in a training situation (imo) is to go at full speed. And for that a training weapon offers the same training as a real weapon which HAS been cleared properly. This isn’t like a military live fire scenario where units need to practice movements using real ammo.. this is one on one classroom experience where the control factors are removed because the gun is *assumed* to be safe. Completely different imo.
quote \”unstpabl1\:Sparing in class is way different than doing a smoker and a smoker is different than the street.\”Doing a smoker\”…. hmmm. Hadn’t given it much thought, but I guess if I were single I wouldn’t discriminate if I really liked her.
quote \”unstpabl1\:Awhile back on this forum some Krav instructors went to the range. One shot the gun while the other one held the barrell. So they could see the effects when you grab the gun for disarms.Now THAT sounds like some highspeed training. It has all the ingredients of good training which might include the element of injury, but conducted by trained personell at a controlled location designed for using real weapons. It becomes a necessary risk to establish hands on experience, something which classroom practice could never simulate.
To vwr32’s points exactly. . .
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/15/BA9ERIE64.DTL
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quote \”unstpabl1\:Force on Force training has proven over and over again, that if you stand still, aim and shoot, the way most academies teach, you will get shot/hit. Most gunfights take place at close range. Getting off the x, preferably to 11 or 1 o’clock has proven very effective. Alot of the gun footwork is being taken from kali and pressure tested. As well as being worked with through the transitions from empty hand to weapon and visa versaCan you elaborate on the kali footwork used in gun training? I’m guessing stepping offline forwards or backwards in triangles.
A while back, I was reading about a guy named John Painter who teaches defensive tactics to law enforcement, and he trains bagua footwork with the handgun (to me, bagua footwork seems too complicated for a gunfight).
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[quote=\”vwr32
quote \”unstpabl1\:Training your reactions to become second nature is a start. Then you have to test it under fire.There is no absolute way to test being under fire until you’re there. Training to enter a ring with rules and refs in no way simulates a situation where the guy playing the attacker role is actually trying to take your life. Adding the potential for accidental shooting simply isn’t worth the effort because it doesn’t come close to what it would really be like. The closest you can get in a training situation (imo) is to go at full speed. And for that a training weapon offers the same training as a real weapon which HAS been cleared properly. This isn’t like a military live fire scenario where units need to practice movements using real ammo.. this is one on one classroom experience where the control factors are removed because the gun is *assumed* to be safe. Completely different imo.
Absolutelely true no one knows how they’ll react till under fire. I totally agree with you. The next best thing is to scenario train and to add stress. Krav does this big time by using exhaustion drills. Their phase training and belt testing is a baptism under fire as I understand. Pressure testing your techs and instilluing fear as \”fatique makes cowards of us all\”. Krav when it didn’t have as many students did a lot of scenario training, going down to the garage and stuff, turning the lights off, etc. To try to bring your body and more importantlyyour mind to the stress you might feel under fire. This is the purpose of the real gun as well, that and to get you to watch the vid 😆
I’m again not disagreeing with you about the importance of gun safety. I work in Hwd and did live action stunt shows for years. I use to demo the damage blanks could do. I started around the time John Eric Hexum, killed himself screwing around on set. I’ve seen and been hit by blanks not properly aimed. I don’t assume shit when a gun is pointed at me. I stopped a production till I personally inspected almost 30 guns that were pointed at me on set. Most were plastic 😆 but I don’t assume.
That said we differ on \”Assume\”. If you check a gun and dry fire it and then I check the gun and dry fire a few times its no longer an assumption whether its loaded. And again I’m not recommending this as a daily expirience. It is absolutely safer to train with a yellow practice gun and most morons I don’t trust driving their cars. But it can be done safely and it definately affected me mentally. The hole on the 45 looked like a freaking manhole cover and brought a seriousness to the training that the toys didn’t. I can only speak for the training group i did it with. I’m not assuming that would be your expirience.
Again \”I am not advocating the practice on a regular basis\”, its simply a drill. Having done it,I found both the knife and the gun eye opening, but you better know who your training with and triple test it. You don’t think it’ll help your training. Thats cool. You should never do it.
Again, I am not advocating training with live blades and real guns, just explaining why its done and my expirience in its effectiveness. As I’ve said before, I don’t care about how others train. Everyones gonna have a different opinion. I trust the guys who’ve advised me over the years
At the NTC we use metal guns for training that look and feel just like the real thing. You can pull the slide and pull the trigger, but they are not real guns and could not be loaded with actual bullets. So you are getting the benefit of looking at a realistic weapon, without the worry of getting accidently shot by a guy who didn’t clear it correctly. This may be a good compromise, it’s safe, but there is still the realism of looking at something that appears to be an actual danger. Whenever we use the other, yellow or red guns, it does indeed feel different.
As for using other real weapons, in some cases it may be possible. We use real sticks for stick defenses for example. One could possibly do knife defenses against a real knife on occasion, because one could slow things down a lot and do it more carefully than with the plastic knives that are commonly being used.
However guns are more tricky, if you train with a gun that’s actually loaded, it’s simply too big a risk, if you mess up the defense just once, you are getting shot at 100% speed and power, no way to slow it down. So then the only way is to used an unloaded weapon and if you are really sure it’s not loaded, the fear factor diminishes greatly, making the exercise pointless.
I went to the gun range twice with professional teachers and they always emphasized safety and not to point the gun at anyone, even for a second and even if you were 1000% sure it was unloaded.
We also worked on shooting while moving there, in a shooting house, which was really cool and hard to do, since the gun is wobbling around a lot if you are in motion. So, it’s good to train on it sometimes. We didn’t shoot while holding the slide, but it would be a good experience and possible to do safely, because the gun would be pointed away from people.
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GiantkillerGK, I didn’t want to do the knife thing and don’t recommend it or the gun. both were a long time ago, but don’t say it doesn’t up the ante and bring you to now. It has a purpose. Its very effective at getting your attention and you never look at training the same.
In the 70’s, I’d heard Gaje, made everyone attending his knife seminars, Pekiti Tersia, kill a chicken. Its about mindset, the most important aspect of this crap. The mentality was if your going to pick up a blade or go against one you better have the heart for it. Probably made for a good bbq later 😉
People train for different reasons, have different focuses. Every guy thinks that when they lose their temper, the world better look out. Thats the front. Most of us are domesticated and true violence affects us all differently, especially if we’ve been lucky enough to have never seen it. Its ugly and shocking. But there are people in the world, who’ve only known violence, they thrive on it or the drugs make them not care
We’re at a disadvantage, because they look at you as lunch and we see them as human. Imi said not all men who walk on 2 legs are human. To me when I am able to train, getting pretty frustrated GK 😥 I have a purpose for being there and I’m not looking for a date or a new friend or listening to music. Though I’m easy to work with I try to keep the intention. So pushing the envolope, rbsd, which krav was one of the first to do commercially is a good mindset and most of us are smart enough to temper it with safety. The flip side is by going to class you also get the health and social perks, but its a by product of the purpose
Well, I agree with you on the whole RBSD thing. I love the idea of doing scenario drills, adding fear in different ways, training so you don’t know what’s coming, in the dark, in realistic environments. We’ve been going down to the garage a few times the last few weeks and that’s always cool, because you suddenly get a feel for what it must be like to actually having to fight in that type of environment as opposed to the safety of the padded gym.
If you never do this type of training, you may never see how you could just throw the attacker down the stairs, or over the railing, or into door knobs etc, instead you may just go with the defense you’ve always trained for, simple block and counter, trying to knee him on the stairs when you could simply turn him and make him crash three stories down. 😈 So, training realistically is great and the more we do it the better imo. Hell, we should just move the whole gym into the garage! 😀
On the other hand, once it gets into using actual weapons common sense needs to be used. Yes, real weapons can add to the realism. So, if it can be done safely, I’d be in favor of doing it on occasion. For example, I think it would always be okay to do KM stick or even stick against stick defenses with actual batons. We’ve done that for years without any serious injury occuring (at least not that I’m aware of).
Lately, we’ve replaced the batons with these weird, light foam things and I don’t really like to use them, because there isn’t any real danger. It’s hard to even swing them correctly, so it takes away that element of fear. if you mess up the defense, no problem, you won’t even feel it. But if you get used to them and then a real sticks comes flying at you, you may hesitate for just a moment, questioning if the technique could really work against such a heavy object. By then, it may be too late and you could get hit. So, for stick, using a fake weapon is not so good, because in that instance using something more realistic could be done without problems.
For knife, we don’t train with real knives, just on occasion the shocknife. I like the shocknife, because it does add that element of danger, it also really hurts when you get hit with it, yet it couldn’t seriously injure you. I think that training with real knives could possibly be done, but one would have to slow it way down and of course be careful. I’d just do it to get used to seeing that actual, shiny, sharp object and to build additional confidence in my technique. You wouldn’t have to go fast, but if you defended like that a few times, you can now feel a bit safer knowing that the defense should work against a real threat.
However, in comparison to an actual loaded gun, I, as the knife-wielding attacker, can slow down my motions if the defender messes up the defense. I can watch him and if he does something wrong, I could still pull back. With a gun, once the trigger is pulled, the bullet is coming out full force and it could hit you or even bystanders far away and cause serious injury. And, again, if you are 100% certain the gun ISN’T loaded, the fear factor dimishes and you might as well use a metal gun that isn’t real to accomplish the same effect.
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GiantkillerRe:
nickm, I hate to see stories like that. Even people with the best training are still only people in the end. Human error, even the slightest distraction, or (in context of this discussion), the possibility of students becoming too at ease with the idea of pointing a real weapon at someone. \”Oh, here’s the class training gun… it’s always unloaded so no need to clear it.\” It could be anyone from the anxious-to-train highschool kid, to someone like me who has had some of the best saftey training our armed forces can provide. Or the cop in the story. Thanks for sharing. Might help keep folks on their toes.
GK, loved the idea of having a real weapon which has been made permanently inoperable. I think ppl are confusing \”adding fear\” to the mix with testing under pressure. The adrenaline pumps when you move at combat speed on the drills, but the fear will never be there if you trust the people you’re training with. And if you don’t, then that’s even more reason not to let them point a weapon at u lol. The training u talked about sounds really cool. But that’s a very controlled environment where the danger is known and expected… not accidentally lurking in the chamber. I love that kind of stuff.
unstpable1, yeah, we’ll continue to disagree with using an unloaded weapon as a training tool. If the goal is to operate under fear, let it be intentionally loaded and kept on safe. No? There simply isn’t any fear associated with a weapon thought to be unloaded until it accidentally goes off. And by then it’s too late.
As for testing all the skills you’ve accumulated by adding danger to the equation? You have to ask yourself what the reason for the test is and weigh the consequences to the benefits. We’ve already established there’s no fear associated with an known unloaded weapon. There’s a potential for death if someone makes a mistake. Those don’t seem balanced. Here’s a vid for ya too…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsr15eab0g
For those that don’t want to watch it, it’s a 9th degree black belt testing his skills on his assistant by cutting a cucumber on the assistants throat with a sharp sword. Oops, sliced a bit too far. Good training.I have faith the things taught in krav are going to work if i ever need it… or I wouldn’t be taking it. Human error resulting in potentially being shot during training because of some need to make me feel fear? I’d rank that right up there with putting a cucumber on my neck and letting master DumDum take a whack at it.
quote \”unstpabl1\:I have a purpose for being there and I’m not looking for a date or a new friend or listening to music.Now that statement just made me feel sad for ya. I’m getting ready to go workout by myself too… but it’s 98 in the garage so nobody will be able to tell the tears from the sweat.:cry: Here’s some music you might enjoy while working out alone.
Weapon of Choice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_yADcd7EUU
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quote \”CLFMak\:[Can you elaborate on the kali footwork used in gun training? I’m guessing stepping offline forwards or backwards in triangles.
A while back, I was reading about a guy named John Painter who teaches defensive tactics to law enforcement, and he trains bagua footwork with the handgun (to me, bagua footwork seems too complicated for a gunfight).[/quote]
Yeah buddy, its the triangle footwork. I think their finding most success at 11 and 1 oclock and one version comes thru southnarc via Pekiti. you know how they use that step as kind of a controled fall or drop step. Alot of this came from a symposium a few years and some airsoft expiriements. Some of our favorite players were there and its being worked and improved daily. And yes the range Nazis are having hissyfits 😆
If you ever need to C you can PM me at Garddawgs
mike
V i don’t sweat the fact that someone disagrees with me. I’m not always right. I am not advocating the pactice, just that I found value in it and why trainers do it.
I can only comment on things I’ve actually done and how I felt doing them. Or how the group felt during debrief. Your mileage may vary. I am not trying to convince of anything, simply offering, how it was done and what we/I expirienced.
As far as trying to paint me as a lonely guy or feeling sad for me. Waste of energy. I’ don’t worry much about other peoples opinions of me. Some will adore me others will hate me. Most of the time their just thinking about themselves anyway
I actually kind of like your posts. I tried to stick up for you on the thread about the other krav assoc. You kinda took a snipe at GD and me, though we never critiqued your training. I let it slide, partly because at the end of our discussion on w/o, I didn’t have a clue what you were argueing. And mostly because your training background was irrelevent as the guy was just trying to bait you, troll that he was.
You have alot of opinions as he pointed out. I look forward to watching them grow as you get some time under your belt in krav and maybe into RBSD. So there is no misunderstanding on RBSD, I’m defining it as interface between Knife, gun and empty hands
Good luck with your training
mike
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quote \”unstpabl1\:As far as trying to paint me as a lonely guy or feeling sad for me. Waste of energy. I’ don’t worry much about other peoples opinions of me. Some will adore me others will hate me. Most of the time their just thinking about themselves anywayI actually kind of like your posts. I tried to stick up for you on the thread about the other krav assoc. You kinda took a snipe at GD and me, though we never critiqued your training.
I wasn’t trying to paint you as a lonely guy… I know some people don’t care for the music while training etc.. wsa just kidding. Sorry if I hit a nerve.
Not sure what you’re talking about as for \”sniping\” you and garddawg. True, if I have a problem with something someone says I let it be known. Sometimes the consequences for speaking your mind is that you create a wall the other person can’t get over. Guess I pegged you as someone who could get over it… no biggie.
Sorry.
Good luck in your training too.Re:
quote \”vwr32\:[
I wasn’t trying to paint you as a lonely guy… I know some people don’t care for the music while training etc.. wsa just kidding. Sorry if I hit a nerve.Not sure what you’re talking about as for \”sniping\” you and garddawg. True, if I have a problem with something someone says I let it be known. Sometimes the consequences for speaking your mind is that you create a wall the other person can’t get over. Guess I pegged you as someone who could get over it… no biggie.
Sorry.
Good luck in your training too.The vid was of a lonely Chris Walken dancing in a empty hotel, then being lonely again. With the tag line have fun working out by yourself after you quoted my line about I don’t go to train to get a date or make friends and edited the part that, that was a by product of training. So yeah, I didn’t interput it as being about the music…..still don’t
On the snipe line. I don’t want to bump up a thread I was trying to make die. Re read your first paragraph or so of your last post in the kfed thread. Thing is I was working to deflect the guy from you and hoping you wouldn’t answer. I may disagree with you on things, but I’ll always stick up for your right to express your thoughts and not get dragged down by someone elses agenda. how else can we learn.
\”I don’t hold grudges V\” and I look at discussions as a way to learn or help. I don’t see our prior discussions as arguements or walls, but more of a difference of definitions and perspective. Though I do read sarcasm into your posts including \”Sorry If I hit a nerve\” and I guess I had you pegged as someone who could get over it\”. Now I understand intent is king and I may be reading subtlty into your posts that you don’t mean, but others have commentented on it as well
So, if I am misunderstanding and misinterputing your posts I apologize, as I err all the time, but at least you know how your communication is being recieved on my end, maybe it’ll clear up our communication. If not I totally understand 😀
Take care. Hope you have a great day
mike
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quote \”unstpabl1\:So, if I am misunderstanding and misinterputing your posts I apologize, as I err all the time, but at least you know how your communication is being recieved on my end, maybe it’ll clear up our communication. If not I totally understand 😀That’s the problem with internet postings. Sounds good in your head and when you write it there is no slight intended. Somebody else reads it (minus tone and voice inflection) and thinks it is a shot at them.
unstabl1 I enjoy reading your posts here and over on WT. You and I think pretty much along the same lines on most things.
V has pretty good insight too even though he hasn’t been in Krav that long. He already has the mentality down pat ,which is something that I have seen in some people that may be more advanced in technique (because they have been doing it longer) never seem to really get it. Must be all that Army training. Hey V did you retire an 11B?
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