September 19, 2006 at 7:01 pm #29671jburtonpdxMember
There is a thread going in the LE area about civilians learning weapons retention. It seems the sides of the discussion are the obvious, you dont need it versus the it might come in handy statements.
I dont feel as though I should be posting on that side as I am not LE but I do have a question directed towards those on the \”you dont need it\” side.
In the case of a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm would it not behoove that person to have the best training available for that firearm?
I do see the argument that we would not want a bad guy learning these particular skills both from the standpoint of we dont want them to retain their firearms and also from the view that we dont want them to be reverse-engineered by the bad guys.
However that still does not answer the question of would it not behoove the good guy to have the best possible and most thorough training as is practical?
Keep in mind folks, I am not asking anybody to reveal any secrets here, just a point of discussion around an opinion. Lets not get all emotional about this…. 😉September 19, 2006 at 8:40 pm #49705ryanMember
\”you dont need it versus the it might come in handy statements.\”
I don’t think anyone took the \”you don’t need it\” approach.
Ultimately, the decision will lie in the hands of the instructor, and if students can be vetted to satisfaction, I suppose that’s their call.September 19, 2006 at 9:16 pm #49707usnavy-233Member
I’m an avid shooter and a big proponent of CCW. As such, I have many friends and associates who are also CCW-ers and shooters. I can’t think of a single one who would NOT suggest that you learn some form of weapons retention. Even if you don’t actually learn weapons retention skills (which I highly suggest if you’re going to carry a weapon), at the very least use a holster with some sort of built in retention device.
I use an open top leather holster and it has no retention device on it, but I also have weapons retention skills so that balances out for me. At least make sure you consider one or the other. And keep in mind that weapons retention skills don’t have to be complex. Just having situational awareness and keeping your strong side away from your attacker/opponent can make a difference to some degree. A few basic joint manipulation skills can come in very handy in the event that someone comes up behind you and puts their hand on your weapon. Ideally you would avoid this situation all together by being aware of your surroundings and avoiding having someone sneak up behind you. But in the event that happens, it’s best to know how to get their hand off your weapon quickly and affectively.September 19, 2006 at 11:28 pm #49712
Hey, just the kind of discussion I was hoping for on the other forum!
As I have said there, I do believe weapon retention could have some applications for civilians, especially the ones who carry guns. For the ones who don’t carry guns, it could still come in handy in case they should find themselves in a struggle for a gun (they may do the KM gun defense, end up briefly with the weapon, but the attacker goes to grab it again).
Of course one shouldn’t endanger police officers, but I was wondering about how great a danger it could potentially be, since officers are usually trained to stay at a distance to the suspects and might rarely be in a situation where they have to do a hand defense against a gun (in which case the suspect could then use the KM technique against them, if he knew it).
If we are talking about a situation where the suspect grabs the officer’s deployed weapon (not from the holster, but a weapon that is already in the officer’s hand), then there could be a similar danger (or even greater danger?) if the suspect knows the KM gun technique plus takeaway. Yet we teach this technique to regular students and even show it in books and videos. But again, officers are trained to stay at a distance, so, in most cases, I would assume they would not be close enough for the suspect to grab the gun.
Of course, anything can happen, but I was wondering how many instances there really are of officers doing hand defenses against an armed suspect, or suspects grabbing a weapon that is pointed at them.
A situation where a suspect tries to grab the gun from the holster sounds like the most likely scenario. An officer may just talk to a person and suddenly he makes an aggressive move toward the gun. This type of retention is also the one that is least applicable to civilians, since most don’t openly carry a gun in a holster, so that technique could be kept secret.
One would have to weigh the potential benefits with the potential dangers and I’m thinking, if this were something that was taught to, let’s say, trusted level 5 students (in addition to the KM instructors, who are already learning these techniques), I’m not sure the danger would increase. One wouldn’t have to reveal these techniques in books or DVD’s, just teach them to some advanced students in class.
I was also wondering, if there have ever been reported incidents of KM techniques being used, here or abroad, against police officers (for example the gun defenses).
Personally, considering everything, I find that the benefits of allowing advanced students to learn these techniques could outweigh the potential dangers.
GiantkillerSeptember 20, 2006 at 2:35 am #49717
Agree – Retention devices are very important – If you’re going H2H you obviously don’t want a BG to wrestle your firearm away from you … I just bought a Kydex Blackhawk CQC holster with a SERPA lock – I love it.
Also agree that for those who carry, we should learn some retention skills. If they are unavailable in your training, some can be picked up by applying what you already know. For example:
When defending a choke from behind (no push), pluck hands and step to your strong side (the side you carry on) keeping your weapon away from the attacker, striking with the opposite hand (if you carry on the right, step to the right and strike with the left) … This allows you to continue with combatives, and may allow you to make space to present your weapon.
Just one example, but can be applied to some other techniques as well – I wouldn’t dream of changing the system, and am not qualified to teach but with a little forethought and creativity some things can be made to work.September 20, 2006 at 6:50 am #49727
I’m not that into guns, but it seems to me that if you wanted to avoid a close struggle with an attacker where your gun (some military folks might cringe when I call it that), carrying a secondary weapon would be a very good option. A small knife will keep somebody from grappling your main weapon away, without a whole lot of training. If an attacker tries to take your gun from its holster or your hand, he is exposing a limb for you to disable. Some seem to be well suited for the person with concealled carry in mind.
Options like OC spray come to mind, but at that range you might hit yourself too, and it doesn’t always work.September 20, 2006 at 7:42 am #49729
Those are awesome! I carry a tactical folder but never really considered this type of edged weapon. Agree, they look like a great alternative – I’ll be looking for one!
I also carry spray occasionally – It may not incapacitate someone but unless you spray it into the wind it will almost definately give you a tactical advantage, and allow you to go on the offensive.September 20, 2006 at 8:05 am #49730usnavy-233Member
I carry a Microtech Socom Elite Auto. A knife is a great addition to anyone personal security mechanism. Shiv works and Hideaway are very popular amongst the knife enthusiasts I know.September 22, 2006 at 7:57 am #49782
The designs and methodologies of Shivworks are some of the most practical I’ve ever seen, but I would like them more if they weren’t called \”shivworks\”- if you end up explaining yourself in court, it would probably be more favorable with a Spyderco Endura then a Shivworks Lil Loco or Shivworks Clinch Pick. You might argue that something like that shouldn’t make a difference, but we’re in a culture where balisongs are illegal for some reason, and anything that’s not a Swiss Army knife will raise eyebrows in public.September 22, 2006 at 8:09 am #49783
Oh, if you’re looking into such knives, also look up Fred Perrin’s knives- similar concepts involved- small in close weapons that are hard to drop and can cause gruesome damage.
http://www.szaboinc.com/newitems.html Note the Toucan, Kiridachi, and Shark
While looking for links, I found out me makes shoe spikes…
http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=21&products_id=511September 22, 2006 at 2:49 pm #49793
Shoe spikes? ZOINKS! 😈
Talk about trying to explain yourself in court!!!
Those actually look like they’d be easy to make … Hmmmm …???September 22, 2006 at 8:45 pm #49809kravmdjeffMember
I carry a sword. An expandable sword. ASP makes a really nice kitana.September 22, 2006 at 9:31 pm #49812
Wow, I wouldn’t want to get a round kick in the face with those. 🙁
\”…give an added level of self-defense when you know you are going into a potentially bad situation.\” Hmmmm, aren’t we supposed to avoid bad situations? If you know you might be \”in a bad situation\”, but go anyway and use those shoes on someone’s face, could that have legal repercussions, even if you used them in self-defense?
GiantkillerSeptember 23, 2006 at 4:28 am #49826quote :
You mean the foot spikes, or me with my American Flag parachute pants? 😀
The spikes seem like they’d work very well for leg kicks (especially inside leg kicks), instep kicks to the groin, round kicks to the ribs, etc but I don’t know about the legal side of it.September 24, 2006 at 5:03 am #49851
I think I meant both, your American flag pants and the spike shoes. 😉
The legal side can’t be good, if the other guy is going to be all cut up from the knife shoes. But it would be a good weapon to have, the groin kick must hurt… 🙁
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