October 24, 2007 at 2:13 am #30304mambokingMember
Scott Gray, who was the owner of the Cleveland KM school, was arrested for having sex with a 14 yr. old girl. Why does it seem like there is a higher percentage of this kind of stuff in the Martial Arts world?October 24, 2007 at 5:43 am #57157la-revanchaMember
Inexcusably despicable. 👿 👿October 24, 2007 at 5:48 am #57159psyopsMember
I am not a LEO. However I did work with some criminal profilers in the Bay area when I was in the Army. Martial Arts communities are the perfect hiding places for predators. Why? Because they have access to their victims. Usually these predators are \”hiding in plain site\”. They take interest in a child that they view as easy prey. Parents are more likely to trust an instructor with their children. Once the trust of the child and parent are gained by the predator, he pounces. Jeremy or Dave can probably speak to this in more detail. They are LEO’s. On a personal note I would love to deliver a front kick to the groin of any bastard who violates a child. Especially one in my own profession!October 24, 2007 at 10:44 am #57171stevetunaMember
I am a LEO and a school owner. Sex crimes against children are the worst crime that we investigate, in many ways.
To avoid even the chance of a bad situation (or a false accusation, for that matter, as rare as they are), we urge parents to be around to watch classes. This is not a problem with the younger groups but it does become a problem with the older, more independent kids. School owners and instructors must always be alert to the possibility of these bad situations.
Terrible…October 24, 2007 at 3:18 pm #57179resqr1Member
I am also a LEO. Anywhere kids gather is a prime target for predators. Boy Scouts, Martial Arts schools, day care, even church. Unfortunately, these animals lurk around otherwise credible orginizations and give thise places a bad name. The only protection we can offer is to be ever vigilant in our kids’ safety. Background checks don’t always catch these people. Especially if they haven’t been caught yet. These people gain our trust and then reveal their true agenda or have it revealed. These animals devastate a lot of lives.
I have only had to initiate two such investigations. Fortunately for me, I was low man on the totem pole and turned it over to detectives, but not befoer taking initial statements. In my opinion, this is the worst crime. I pray that the victim and her family get the help they need. I also feel bad for the offender’s family. His wife sounded distraught. It’s a terrible, terrible situation.October 24, 2007 at 3:37 pm #57181jburtonpdxMember
Question to the LEO’s reading,
Is there something we can watch for? I know that its rare that I let my youngest out of my site. But the girl mentioned here is 14, really at an age where we do allow much more independence then say my 9 year old.
So that said, both watching those that have \”authority\” over our children and our children, are there specific behaviors we should watch for that might key us in that we need to pay more attention to this particular person? Not saying we want to convict anybody based on our observations, but something that might tell us we should be staying and supervising this particular meeting between the child and the adult.
I have 2 daughters – 9 years old and the other is 13 years old. The instructors we have at our school I consider family and trust them with my life and my family. But as was said in another post, this is something to look at in other areas as well – school, church, sports, etc… Heck even our children’s friends. Not saying be paranoid, just observant. I guess that is the reason I ask the above question about what to watch for.October 24, 2007 at 6:50 pm #57192resqr1Member
If you see something that doesn’t \”feel\” right, trust that feeling. We all know what flirting is. We all know what is not appropriate. As I tell my son, \”If it doesn’t look or feel right, it probably isn’t.\” Trust YOUR instincts. Humans are the only animals who have been programmed to ignore their instincts. Specifics are almost impossible to give other than the absolutely obvious.October 24, 2007 at 6:56 pm #57193cjs-dadKeymaster
Re: Cleveland Instructor Arrested
[quote:fc4d11ab9d=\”mamboking\”]Scott Gray, who was the owner of the Cleveland KM school, was arrested for having sex with a 14 yr. old girl. Why does it seem like there is a higher percentage of this kind of stuff in the Martial Arts world?
Just as a point of clarification the individual in question is not affiliated with our organization. I believe heís a TKD instructor according to Chuck at corp.October 24, 2007 at 8:05 pm #57198jlMember
Whoever he is affiliated with isn’t the point. However the true facts should be known. And it also should be known that this despicable person couldn’t possibly be a true Kravist.
In any form of KM (and maybe the one thing that they all have in common) is the exact reason we all are so fervent on what we teach and what we do.
This sub-human may have forevermore ruined the life of an innocent child. As a community and a nation, we must continue to try and squelch the violence on our children, our senior citizens, or any at risk person.
In our own humble way we do just that. We train ourselves and in some cases we train others. This fight against wrong must continue at all cost. Our childrens lives depend on it.
In another thread I explained that I am a Grandfather of two beautiful children, rest assured that they will start their KM training at the earliest moments possible.
Again, putting all disagreements and pettiness aside as for which \”Krav\” you teach or train in to me is paramount to the knowledge and growth of this art going forward.
I’m sure that most assault victims would surely take from any source, ways of saving themselves, no matter the name on it.
I write this to you all now, with tears running down my face, in true sadness and anger, for what this poor child has had to endure! I’m soooo pissed!!! 😥October 24, 2007 at 11:07 pm #57206ryanMember
I’m not aware of his current status, but this guy is, unfortunately, a certified (one time, at least), KM instructor. The truth is, garbage like this is found in all walks of life. No profession or social class is immune.October 25, 2007 at 3:52 am #57210dave-bluesteinModerator
In order for someone to commit an act as such mentioned above, they need three things: The desire, the ability and lastly, the opportunity. If any one of these is removed from the equasion, then the act in not able to be commited. As parents, we cannot affect desire or ability, but we can surely affect opportunity.
With that said, it is unfortunate that this has occurred. I fear though, that it is probably not the first time this individual has committed this crime. Just the first time that it was reported and he was caught. There are probably more victims out there.
As far as whether or not he is a Krav instructor, I’m not sure. But we bring all types of people in as instructors. We do not do background checks and even if we did, they would not be perfect. People will always slip through the cracks. It is the same for Law Enforcement. One would like to think that all officers are righteous and have integrity. As a Sergeant who spent 3+ years in Internal Affairs, not all officers are good people. Whether they started bad, or travelled down the slippery path over time is a discussion for another time. As police departments attract people from all walks of life, there will be some bad apples that slip through the cracks. It is unavoidable.
I think the reason that we see the catholic preists, martial arts instructors, and teachers have a higher number of incidents of sex with minors, is that they have greater access to them and have built a trust.
As parents, we must remain aware and do the best that we can to protect our children. We have to do our best to eliminate the \”opportunity.\”
I hope this sheds a little light on the topic.October 25, 2007 at 12:40 pm #57211jesse-rkMember
Scott was a Krav Maga instructor. My wife and I visited his school a few times. We had just signed up to take lessons there. Our trial lesson is next Tuesday with one of the other instructors at the school. I know it’s not the other instructor’s fault, but the place gives me the creeps now.
This is the only Krav school I could find in our area. If I am uncomfortable there I will train in jujitsu instead. Krav was our first choice, then this happened…
We found out about it on this forum.October 25, 2007 at 12:51 pm #57212stevetunaMember
Please don’t let this alpha hotel skew your opinion of Krav Maga instructors, or of people in general.
Dave’s post above sums up all that I’d be able to say about this terrible topic. These creatures are everywhere, sad to say. I just this morning helped the FBI load one of them up to go bye-bye to Federal prison for life. His crimes are terrible. Yet no one in our small community (that we’ve been able to find at this time, anyway) knew what this sick @#$%^&* did. Sadly, we in law enforcement need to get real lucky to catch these monsters.
Please try Krav Maga. I believe that if you’re looking for the best combination of fitness and self-defense available, you’ll find it in Krav Maga.
Best wishes.October 25, 2007 at 2:21 pm #57213vwr32Member
Have to agree with stevetuna on this. Viewing that particular location, or krav instructors in general, as being somehow culpable even on just a \”creepy\” level really ignores the truth: This guy acted alone and is alone to blame.
There’s no guarantee that switching to juijitsu will be any better. Or that switching from a Catholic church to a Christian one will be 100% free of wrongdoers. Even family members are prone to such attacks. It’s a part of life… drunk drivers shatter lives. Drugs destroy an otherwise bright future of a child. Corporate scandals rob employees of their life savings. Pedofiles act on opportunities. Facing those dangers on your own is also a part of growing up. In this case, at least the parents were trying to provide the girl with skills that might help address some dangers she might eventually face. Unfortunately, the dangers don’t always give you clues to be wary. An enthusiastic instructor willing to work closely with a student would normally be viewed as a positive.
The girl is the victim in the matter, but she’s not alone. Society as a whole suffers when someone in a position of trust betrays that trust. In this case, according to the story, the wife of the attacker is going to try to keep the school open while finding a divorce attorney. She’s devastated about all of this, and she has a baby who’s father is now under arrest for having sex with a minor. I understand some people will be \”creeped out\” about the location because of what happened, but I hope they rethink who is being harmed by misplaced blame.
And if nothing else, I kinda see it as probably being safer than other places in that the sexual predator was exposed, and removed. Not much different than enjoying your house a bit more once the exterminator leaves.October 25, 2007 at 4:05 pm #57219tyler-caponeMember
I know its a fine line and most probably wouldnt care but based on how the story is worded it seems like this was a consenual realtionship that has been going on for awhile. The story states that the girl was 14 when the relationship \”started so she may very well be over 16 by now which is the age of consent in Ohio.
So dont assume that this guy is some predatorial child molester. He could just be a guy who made a very bad mistake. Its illegal no matter what though but the world of \”sexual crimes\” can be a very grey area.
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