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November 28, 2012 at 12:03 pm #33586seraphs-coalMember
Before I get started let me say outright that I am absolutely not looking to start a discussion of which is better, Krav or Aikido, no doubt you too have read various articles all over the net promoting one MA over another and people advocating for their MA over another and so on, i really don’t want to bring that type of discussion into this forum if its possible!
I am both interested in Aikido in general and its history in the evolution of Krav Maga. – starting with the History angle, this is a small excerpt from the Composition of Krav Maga thread – from Kevin Mack, The system came from Imi’s ideas and original techniques but was also developed with the help of his top student Eli Avikzar Eli was the first person to ever be granted a black belt in Krav Maga. he was also a black belt in Judo and aikido as was the recipient of the second black belt in Krav Maga…Raphy Elrissi. If anyone would like to expand on the use of Aikido techniques in Krav, please do as its a fascinating subject to look at, Aikido seems to me on the surface to be a very different system to Krav, So its interesting to see how it may have evolved over time.
Secondly I would like to discuss Aikido in general from a neutral point of view, its been described to me as a “Soft” martial art that uses an attackers strength against themselves and I have been told that it has a pattern of Joint Locks that are quite effective when used by those trained in it. Conversely Krav is often suggested to be “Hard” and attack driven (not my words, what I have read online!) From this perspective it makes Krav and Aikido seem quite different. Yet then I read that Stephen Segal practices Aikido that is from an older more traditional school which has a stronger focus on attacking style “hard” moves and its suggested that modern Aikido has moved away from these roots?
Anyway I just wanted to put these up for discussion, please feel welcome to join in and add your thoughts! I have wondered if training in Aikido might compliment Krav by bringing in other techniques not used in Krav, but again my knowledge of the two systems is still quite limited so am interested to learn all about it!
November 28, 2012 at 1:24 pm #86222kmmanMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I do not know much about Aikido but I can tell you that I train with someone in KM that has an Aikido background and it definitely adds to his “game”. He can take the holds we train to another level. To me, it compliments Krav more than a hard Karate style would such as Shotokan. Not that Shotokan doesnt help, just the compliment might be better in Aikido.
I thought about this often and I think the following compliments KM best…..Aikido, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling.
Muay Thai would be added but so much would overlap. Same with JKD.
My opinion of course.
November 28, 2012 at 5:18 pm #86224esquire32MemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
The training philosophies of aikido compared to Km couldn’t be farther from each other, however, many aikido techniques could easily feed off some of the basic krav defense, ie. do the krav defense and rather than release and strike your way out go into more an aikido perspective for control/take downs etc. Also, much of the aikido footwork could be directly related to Krav.
I have studied both, and certainly see the link and also where in its lineage there was thought given to it. We simply don’t emphasize those aspects for whatever reason and stay almost exclusively with a striker mindset.
As I said above, its the training mentalies that differ so much that creates the issues. Aikidoists ( depending on style and focus) very much focus on harmoniously redirecting another’s energy/attack. In fact, I have Aikidoists tell me that the ultimate goal is to do no damage to your opponent all and to essentially win him over with your complete mastery of him. Altruistic sure. Unfortunately , sometimes this can come across as soft or passive. Krav welll is Krav as we all know.
November 28, 2012 at 10:40 pm #86229tacticaltimmyMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I like to think that whatever you do, operate faster than your opponent can react to. Then expeditiously exit while they try to catch up.
I think generally, an activity that contains similar movements and is intense or realistically technical (TKD vs Muay Thai, in my experience), will help you improve your skills in that area. The difference between those activities and Krav is that those activities CAN be sport in nature and allow people to develop their own “game plans” that revolve around the conscious application of a technique or techniques against an opponent in a controlled environment. I liked Krav class, because at any time the instructor might have another student jump in to the fight that you took to the ground and are currently winning, and have them work against you.November 29, 2012 at 2:00 am #86232ftgfMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I trained in aikido for about ten years, mostly in the US, and have trained in KM for four years. Although it depends on the style of aikido, generally aikido helps in Krav Maga because it helps with balance. If you know how to direct your ki downward, it really makes it difficult for your partner to knock you off balance. Aikido training also helps a lot when any type of breakfall is necessary.
I can say, too, that Krav Maga training after aikido can be difficult. My KM instructors are still after me to be more offensive. Although I trained in Yoshokai Aikido which was known as the “hard way” the lectures were mostly about only using your techniques for defense, controlling your emotions, avoiding confrontation, etc. Lately I feel that KM has made me a bit too aggressive as it spills a bit over into daily life. I’m seriously thinking of going back to aikido to add a little more yin to the yang.
November 29, 2012 at 6:26 am #86235kevinmackMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
some quick notes though I can talk more later….in the original KM curriculum that Darren and Alan Feldman were given in 1981 and which they taught from..it is more obvious to see the aikido influence as it is mainly hebrew translated in to english but they kept a lot of the Japanese terms for techniques. So if you look at those belt requirements you will see terms like tai sabaki,osoto gari,de ashi barai,etc,etc. Since I was trained in this curriculum I have always used those terms to describe the techniques..not “simple sweep”,etc.
The most obvious technique influences of aikido in the system are:
1. Cavalier takedowns for knife disarm as well as some of the other cavaliers.
2.The “Gokyo” police hold.The original curriculum had a whole section titled police holds which I dont see in the KMW syllabus.
3.The breakfalls come from both Judo and Aikido.
(on this note..I consider Judo,Aikido,aikijitsu,sambo,BJJ all to be members of the Jiu Jitsu family.Due to its shared techniques and principles I am starting to consider KM to be a cousin of Jiu Jitsu as well as boxing.)
4.The palm strike is a common aikido striking technique..not saying that it entered the system that way though.
5.I forget the Japanese term for it but the aikido style “clothesline” strike is used in the defense against bayonet stab.
6. The instinctive defense against front kick in Orange belt is an aikido technique.
7. There is a defense in either brown or black belt against a push kick with fwd momentum that is an obvious aikido technique or aikido influenced technique. For the record I hate this technique.
8. Alot of the Krav Maga body mechanics and movements are very influenced by aikido style tai sabaki. This style of movement is more obvious in instructors/fighters who keep more of an old school style of Krav Maga. Like I said above..the original syllabus had all the KM techniques in it before orgs started separating its Law Enforcement and Military applications. In my brown belt test I was tested on defending running bayonet stabs and sentry take downs. A lot of the aikido and Judo influences can be seen in this syllabus in the sections on cavaliers,police holds and in the brown and black belt levels. I have always taught and tested my students from this curriculum and also the KMW curriculum…we recently edited our curriculum to match the way we teach our students so we blended the original syllabus with the KMW syllabus(be cause its the standard in the US and my students need to match the KMW levels in case they move and want to attend a KMW school). We didnt add anything to the system we just moved some things around and added a few things I have learned from other well known KM instructors..plus some clinch work. I always try to point out the origins and influences of these techniques so students can explore their depth if they so desire.
I have actually been compiling notes on this subject for a future writing project.November 29, 2012 at 6:33 am #86236donMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Irimi-nage?
November 29, 2012 at 6:37 am #86237kevinmackMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Also..I dont know how many KM schools teach rolls anymore but they are a part of the original curriculum and serve as breakfalls when pushed fwd with momentum.We also teach flying rolls as Imi told my instructor one scenario in which they could be usefull is..if soldier is captured and has to jump out of a moving truck a flying roll could be useful. These are all done aikido style.
Whats even more obscure rarely recognized is that Imi was also a dancer. There are two techniques/movements that are common dance movements yet I bet very few people ever noticed this.
November 29, 2012 at 9:28 am #86238seraphs-coalMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Way to go KevinMack! thumbsup
November 30, 2012 at 4:31 am #86245lions2011MemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
What were these older Krav Maga Police holds??
Too bad they do not have them anymore???
AT least KMWW does not.
November 30, 2012 at 5:56 am #86252metta-world-krav-magaMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Kevin Mack just blew my mind.
Kevin, you don’t have to respond or post it in this thread if you decide to do this, but is there any way you could post the 1981 Israeli curriculum if it’s not too much trouble? (If it is, or if you want to save certain information for any larger writing projects, no worries and I TOTALLY get it. Please do not feel obligated.) I have the Col. Ben-Asher book at home and am wondering how similar it is to that, to say nothing of the standard American KMW curriculum.
Thanks very much.
November 30, 2012 at 8:20 am #86254kevinmackMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Dont worry..you are not missing much by having the Police Holds removed from your syllabus. They are rather antiquated. They are your basic “come alongs” and are probably more useful for bouncers and security than for police officers. There are 6 of them in the curriculum.
November 30, 2012 at 4:01 pm #86260paulMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
i trained in aikido for a bit, i liked it, just didnt like the bs involved. that is why i like KM , MT and BJJ.
November 30, 2012 at 9:10 pm #86262bear34MemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
quote KevinMack:Also..I dont know how many KM schools teach rolls anymore but they are a part of the original curriculum and serve as breakfalls when pushed fwd with momentum.We also teach flying rolls as Imi told my instructor one scenario in which they could be usefull is..if soldier is captured and has to jump out of a moving truck a flying roll could be useful. These are all done aikido style.Whats even more obscure rarely recognized is that Imi was also a dancer. There are two techniques/movements that are common dance movements yet I bet very few people ever noticed this.
Unfortunately for me, the IKMF still includes rolls and breakfalls in its curriculum. I say unfortunately because while practicing side roles(G1) i damaged an intercostal muscle and have been down for over a month:(:
November 30, 2012 at 10:06 pm #86264jeremy-staffordMemberRe: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Rolls are still a part of the KMW and KMA curriculums. The Police holds are also part of both organizations, although mostly relegated to the respective “force” curricula. I show my advanced students the holds, but just for enrichment, not as testable material.
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