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Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
The more practical versions would come from hapkido though I’m told Shido’s version of aikido is more…..er robust.tokoyo PD..while its all nice and easy to say krav came from just Imi and some other guy martial arts especially military m/a’s aren’t invented as much as collected as well as the philosophy is developed based on the mentality of the coaches and training time alotted
Israel brought in hapkido, judo, mt, boxing , aikido etc masters and used what they found useful and disgarded the rest…they’ve always been active in wrestling, judo, boxing and are a very pragmatic people
In fact NINPO/ninjitsu was big there and some of the more hardcore ninjitsu guys were Israeli back in the day
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Im not against posting the curriculum.Im not in to the whole hiding secret knowledge/proprietary crap some people are in to. I just dont have a digital version and my scanner is just died on me a few weeks ago.
If you want to give me a phone number I could take a couple of pics and txt them to you? I know its kind of ghetto and I would probably only do one belt color but you would be able to check it out quickly till I get another scanner.You can pick the belt level.Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Im not against the idea of posting the curriculum…Im not in to the whole top secret, proprietary crap that some people are in to. I just dont have an electronic copy of it and my scanner died a few weeks ago. I would be willing to snap a pic of a page or two and txt it to someone. Its a little ghetto but quick.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
It would be interesting to see how two opponents of a similar skill level, one trained in Akido and the other in Krav would go in a sparring situation.
As I understand it, Aikido is all about using an opponents own strength against them. In a sparring match the element of surprise is also lost for the Krav practitioner. I can see how throwing a palm strike or a punch at an Aikido practitioner could result in a joint lock, hold or other defense. What I do wonder is how Aikido goes against defending against strikes against the groin?
With Krav being all about being “hard” and a philosophy of attack attack attack, to an experienced Aikido practitioner that could provide a number of opportunities for counter attacks using that hard force against them. Still, once the Aikido person began placing the Krav guy in a lock or hold, Krav’s own counter strategies would likely work well to get out of it.
Again its not about which is better, but it seems to me that if there were two systems used at the highest level of each with experienced practitioners, it would be a pretty intense battle to witness.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I like the tip. Thanks to post it here.. I agree with the suggestion and will follow this…
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Akido is not very effective in a fight from what everybody says. Many Akido people are either older Judo guys( who had too many injuries) or just people looking to catch their inner spirits.
Akido does have some nice wrist locks but when somebody is attacking you with knees or groin kicks they probably will not do much.Also Akido is very complex.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
That still doesn’t negate the fact that about 20% of the KM system comes from Aikido either in technique or concept….the fact that the first few black belts in KM also had black belts in Aikido and continued to practice it till their deaths or old age. In fact Eli Avikzars Krav Magen organization has a large aikido influence in the higher levels in either technique or concept.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I have been trainning in KRAV for a few yrs now and I do not see much Akido influence at all. Except for the wrist locks against the knife that is.
I think the biggest influence for Krav Global is from Karate and boxing.Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
quote paul:i trained in aikido for a bit, i liked it, just didnt like the bs involved. that is why i like KM , MT and BJJ.what B.S do you mean? im puzzled:dunno:
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
I think allot of the KM techniques and philosophy are rooted in WW2 combatives (take a look at some of the old manuals – you see ALLOT that is familiar). Allot of the WW2 combatives is in turn is rooted in old school Judo/Juijitsu techniques – as is Aikido. That doesn’t mean they are similar though, the mindset is utterly different and the evolution of both arts is equally different.
Aikido is (or all the Aikido I’ve ever seen is) an entirely defensive art that relies on your opponent attacking you. You then use leverage, timing and joint locks to throw, disable or control. By contrast if you apply the concepts of Krav Maga it will hopefully be you doing the attacking first – hit first, hit hard and keep going until the threat is over or you can safely escape.
For better, or worse there are very few joint locks, throws or takedowns taught in Krav. It is primarily a striking art (if you can call it an art).
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
Thats not really true but I can see why you think that. There are a few hundred techniques in the KM syllabus and only around 10 are from boxing and maybe 8 from karate)thats stretching it).
The reason why I can understand your misconception is that if you are looking at the system from yellow belt on up you will say boxing is a major influence because those 10 techniques are the first 10 techniques in the syllabus. But if you are looking down from black belt you will see a ton of techniques from and influenced by Judo,Jiu Jitsu and Aikido. Way more than boxing.
Its all about perception.Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
quote KevinMack:Thats not really true but I can see why you think that. There are a few hundred techniques in the KM syllabus and only around 10 are from boxing and maybe 8 from karate)thats stretching it).
The reason why I can understand your misconception is that if you are looking at the system from yellow belt on up you will say boxing is a major influence because those 10 techniques are the first 10 techniques in the syllabus. But if you are looking down from black belt you will see a ton of techniques from and influenced by Judo,Jiu Jitsu and Aikido. Way more than boxing.
Its all about perception.Not sure if you’re replying to me?! Obviously from different organizations as we don’t use the belt system, but I’m currently practicioner level 5, which is the minimum eligability to do the instructor course, so I’m no expert, but have a pretty good exposure to a variety of techniques.
I’m not saying KM takes much influence from boxing – it doesn’t, just some basic footwork and basic striking mechanics. It also borrows and adapts some basic kicking techniques from other martial arts, but striking in KM does not look like striking in most other MA’s.
What I do think is the philosophy and strategy underlying the martial art is completely different and owes more to WW2 combatives than anything else. WW2 combatives also borrowed heavily from Juijitsu forms, but it was primarily about impact.
I agree that the throws, cavaliers and takedowns are mostly lifted from Juijitsu forms, but they do not form the primary strategy or backbone of the martial art… for the most part they are situational techniques. Osoto Gari is a Judo throw that is in KM, but it is not there so you can make throwing the guy your primary objective. Similarly the floor work is just there so you can get up and go back to your primary objective – disabling the guy or escaping.
To me, the most defining feature of a martial art is the strategy and philosophy behind it. Before you get into the techniques of BJJ, the most important and fundamental thing about the martial art is the strategy of taking down an opponent and defeating him on the floor using dominant positioning, leverage, timing and technique.
I think the most important thing to understand about civilian Krav Maga is that the primary object is to escape the threat as quickly and safely as possible – that could be by avoidance, running away, or smashing someone’s head in with a rock. It is a mindset as much as anything else and in that respect it has nothing to do with the various off-shoots of Japanese Juijitsu.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
As a second degree black belt in Yoshinkan Aikido I can say that aikido has evolved and changed drastically. When Morihei Ueshiba, also call O Sensei, the founder of aikido first began to develop aikido it was after years of training in Aiki Jutsu. As he progressed he incorporated techniques from various styles of martial arts quick later became aikido. As O Sensei grew older he realized that aikido needed to adapt to his age and physical state. True aikido from its roots is a very effective form of self defense and incorporates some basic striking. One of O Sensei’s top students.Kenji Tomiki was one of Japan’s top judo practitioners when he began to study aikido. Sensei Tomiki later developed his own “style” Tomiki Aikido which involved competition. Another top student, Gozo Shioda, also developed his own style known as Yoshinkan Aikido. Yoshinkan Aikido is a very linear, hard style of aikido that includes various strikes. Additionally, there are countless variations of aikido including Aikikai Aikido which is more circular and in my opinion much softer than both Tomiki and Yoshinkan Aikido.
I’ve studied Yoshinkan Aikido for well over 10 years and have a very good understanding of the angles of attack. Last night I took my first Krav class and I was having difficulty with the angles. I’m more accustomed to positioning myself at very specific angle in relationship to the attacker. In my first class I soon realized that the angles were completely different and I found myself moving into a position that was too far off the line of attack. Of course with using a wider angle I often discovered that I was not in a good position to complete the strikes as instructed. I believe my aikido training can be a benefit to learning Krav, but as a complete beginner I also realize that it can also hinder my ability to properly place myself in position for defense/attack.
Re: Contrasting Krav and Aikido
One of the things that I have learned about Aikido is that just like Krav Maga, they have splintered away from the founders organization and have differnet schools that focus on differnet areas. Some Aikido seems to me like Dancing and there are other forms that seem pretty good for Self Defense.
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