Home Forums Krav Maga Worldwide Forums KM Techniques & Krav Maga Books Defense from a rear naked choke while standing

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  • #30311
    jay99
    Member

    This question has been on my mind since watching a recent episode of Dexter.

    What is a good defense against a rear naked choke while standing?

    #57201
    giant-killer
    Member

    Once he’s got it on there is little that can be done, as it would take only seconds for you to lose consciousness. I guess you could try to give counters such as stomping on the feet, groin stikes etc, hoping he will loosen his grip. Another thing to do is to try and throw him or, alternatively, trip him back, so you’ll land on the ground and you could try to defend from there (may be easier than standing). You could also try to reach for the hand behind your head. If you can pull that hand off, it will relieve pressure. But all of that would take time and you wouldn’t have much of it to begin with, so it would be tough.

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    Giantkiller

    #57202
    vwr32
    Member

    Re: Defense from a rear naked choke while standing

    [quote:8a9751162e=\”Jay99\”]
    What is a good defense against a rear naked choke while standing?[/quote:8a9751162e]

    I’m sure countless MMA fighters who gave up a win on their record would also like to know that. I think the defense comes in *before* the choke is ‘set’… so the best defense is a quick reaction time to turn the scenario from defending against a rear naked choke to defending against something like a headlock from the side. Tuck your chin, get a hand in there and duck forward… ANYTHING you can do to prevent it from being locked in, do it.

    Once you’re in a rear naked choke, you’ll be out cold in under 10 seconds.

    #57203
    giant-killer
    Member

    It would also be possible to break someone’s neck from that position, even more quickly than choking him, so vw is right, better react faster than he can put it on, or be aware of your surroundings, making sure no one will be able to sneak up on you like that.

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    Giantkiller

    #57204
    ryan
    Member

    It’s a VERY bad place to be, but it’s not impossible. Much like full nelson, you should attack the fingers (that will likely be placed on the head.) From there, you’ll need to pluck and work in your chin in, treating it much like headlock from behind (carotid.)

    Obviously, the earlier you are able to defend, the better, but if you are very late, you have options.

    Hope this helps!

    #57217
    lotar
    Member

    If a rear naked choke is applied correctly, there is not much access to the fingers, and I’m afraid your doomed 😯
    You have very little time to escape, also the attacker will probably take you backwards to the floor.
    We pressure tested this at our club, no one escaped before tapping ,

    Sorry,
    Craig.

    #57218
    jay99
    Member

    Thank you all for the wonderful insight. I must have rewound that scene in Dexter a dozen times to look for an opening. I even picked up the KM book trying to figure one out.

    Ok note to self – don’t let anyone get you in a rear naked choke.

    Got it! lol.

    Thanks again!

    #57221
    kmky
    Member

    reacting before the choke is locked in is the key, but once the rnc is locked in you can try for the eyes. when going for the pluck just continue back and the head is typically there, might not get the fingers in the eyes, but it is better than being choked to death imo.

    #57222
    ryan
    Member

    Yeah, well, if your answer is \”tough shit\”, I’m glad I don’t train at your school.

    Of course it’s very difficult, but nothing is impossible, and fingers, groin strikes, stomps, etc. are accessible, depending on the circumstances (other options may include access to weapons, walls, throws, etc.) I only need fractions of an inch to get my chin in, which buys me considerably more time.

    I am going to advise my students that this is a dire situation, but I’m also going to give them things to try.

    #57223
    jl
    Member

    The other posts were right in the scenario given.

    First and foremost don’t let them sink one in: raise your shoulders as well as tucking the chin

    But also remember this;

    when doing the twohand pluck go for the eyes,
    stomp the feet groin etc.
    bite if you can get a piece.

    but most important: DON’T PANIC….remember your training, the attacker has your upper body not your legs or hips, you may be able to manuever behind and trip, landing on top of the attacker, from there groin strikes, get up, stomp, and go home.

    just another .02 to hear. 😉

    JL

    #57230
    vwr32
    Member

    I like the optimisim of telling students they might still have a chance once *you’re in* a rear naked choke… but I still think it’s better they understand just how fast you’ll be unconscious and best to avoid it completely.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GMQ4h-nsJc

    But sure, u might get lucky. 😀

    #57232
    giant-killer
    Member

    You could also carry a knife, just in case. Stabbing the mofo might make him let go more easily… 🙂

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #57239
    ryan
    Member

    It’s not optimism, it’s reality. Are you telling me it’s not possible to defend this choke?

    Look, if you tell someone, \”If you get choked in this way, you’ll die\”, then the student who unfortunately encounters this attack has likely been doomed, by you. If they have not been given options, but have been told it’s impossible, they won’t fight when the attack comes…why would they? What are the odds of the choke being perfect? Even if it is, are you just going to go to your happy place? I don’t train or think this way, and I won’t do this with my students.

    By the way, my students have an idea of how long they have and what it feels like (which will vary according to numerous variables, which is another reason that this defeatist attitude is BS), through the training they have received (I’m not working from theory, here.)

    #57241
    vwr32
    Member

    Re:

    [quote:241d27d78f=\”Ryan\”]It’s not optimism, it’s reality. Are you telling me it’s not possible to defend this choke?

    Look, if you tell someone, \”If you get choked in this way, you’ll die\”, then the student who unfortunately encounters this attack has likely been doomed, by you. If they have not been given options, but have been told it’s impossible, they won’t fight when the attack comes…why would they? What are the odds of the choke being perfect? Even if it is, are you just going to go to your happy place? I don’t train or think this way, and I won’t do this with my students.

    By the way, my students have an idea of how long they have and what it feels like (which will vary according to numerous variables, which is another reason that this defeatist attitude is BS), through the training they have received (I’m not working from theory, here.)[/quote:241d27d78f]

    We’re operating from two different starting points I think. My response was to the scenario of once the choke is set properly, then yes I’ll stand on the grounds that you’re not getting out of it. You cannot possibly say the official krav position on defending against the rear naked choke means you maybe do this or maybe do that, and hopefully it isn’t set right, or the sun was in his eyes… that’s not a procedure, that’s pot luck.

    Page 274 in the Complete Krav Maga book shows a rear naked choke properly applied (they could be standing as well, it would still be locked in). The person in the choke will be out cold long before he successfully fumbles about looking for a finger to wrench on or an eye socket. The attacker can turn his head and avoid the eye gouge long enough to complet the choke. We’re only talking 3-5 seconds.

    Page 275 in the Complete Krav Maga book shows a defense for a similar choke, the carotid choke. Note the attackers hands are not locked in quite the same way as on page 274. In the instructions, it says \”As the attacker begins the headlock turn your chin away….\”, again the defense seems to be *before* the choke is set.

    Now, you’re right 100%. Nobody should give up while the attacker is ‘setting’ the choke… and I don’t think anybody advocates that. More than likely, if the choke IS properly set, most people will continue to try to find the eye, or a finger, or a foot to stomp on. But it’s not a defeatist attitude to recognize the reality of what the defense is *once it is set*… there isn’t one. Maybe u’ll get lucky and of course you should continue to fight however you can… but the seriousness of the situation should highlight the only defense is a quick response BEFORE the choke is ‘set’.

    So from what u said, the student who might have the misfortune of finding themself in this position has not been doomed by me… maybe they’ve been doomed by an overly optimistic instructor that has taught them ALL things are possible. I like the reality based instruction that tells me I had better react fast enough while I still can… because there are situations that even krav can’t address if I don’t alter that course. If I go into something knowing \”hey, if I let this happen I’m gonna be screwed\”, maybe I’ll fight that much harder to prevent it from happening in the first place.

    And there’s no reason to be nasty about it and tell people u’re glad u don’t train at their school. If you disagree with someone I think it’s possible to recognize they are still another krav institution with simply a different position on the matter. Ultimately, it’s probably nothing more than all of us looking at the scenario from slightly different starting points. It’s a good discussion, we can go thru this without trying to slam someone else’s school who might not even have the same point of view. It’s just talk. 😉

    #57242
    ryan
    Member

    I didn’t slam his school. I stated I’m glad I don’t train there. I stand by that. He is going to state that you’re doomed by a rear naked choke, but in another thread states that he regularly trains to disarm multiple handguns in various situations. 😕

    There’s likely not much point in continuing the discussion, since neither of us is going to alter our stance. That said, I didn’t take any \”official KM stance\” (my research tends to lean towards empirical and anecdotal–this isn’t a slam either, just a note that I haven’t looked at the book.) Simply re-stating the obvious, \”defend early\”, is a no brainer. I’m not going to tell my students they have no chance, no matter how dire the situation. I tend to think along the lines of Lt. Col. David Grossman…The Bulletproof Mind. You and I have a different philosophy on training and reality…I’m okay with that. 8)

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