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This may generate some angry opinions, but I thought I’d talk about this anyway. Please understand I don’t mean to sound sexist.
Now, has anyone else noticed that untrained men tend to fight different than untrained women? I mean, this is just my analysis of natural fighting in America that I’ve witnessed firsthand and through videos, but here’s what I’ve noticed:
Men tend to attack with long, horizontal, circular fist strikes, turning the arm so that the shoulder powers the punch. Among the most common is extending or grabbing with one hand to get a lot of power for a big punch (telegraphing). These horizontal strikes and overzealous intent to drive in and hit hard lead to inaccurate strikes and range, leading to close grappling around the neck or body, which leads into random groundfighting. But my main point is that this formulaic fight (which is obviously not an absolute, but in the chaos it repeats itself in many fights) is all a domino effect of the overcommited circular shoulder punch at the head.
Women seem to have a different initial striking action hardwired (either by nature or socialization, as with men). Many fights with women use downward motions targeting the head, either with the fist or open hand. The upward instep front kick is also common, but is not as universal and accompanies the downward striking. Now, the downward striking leads to hair grappling, partly because of the striking motion, and also because many women have long hair (rings and stuff may also add to this, but this is secondary). This leads to disbalancing takedowns, as opposed to leverage takedowns you see when guys fight. Then once again, random groundfighting.
You can disagree with this, and my evidence is mostly anecdotal, but there is a number of fight videos on the internet that support this.
Assuming this has at least some truth (which you don’t have to), what causes this? One might account for the male horizontal fist by the difference in upper body strength (horizontal punches like that often involve shoulder power). But women, who are said to have more power in their legs (but honestly, I can’t recall hearing this from a credible source), still power hand strikes with the arms (in most fights, the downward strikes are independent of the legs). It may also be a case of the differences in center of gravity. There is also differences in hormones, but I really don’t know much about how all of the \”humors\” work, and if there is any difference in the fight or flight response.
But that is a purely physical observation. There is also the issue of how males and females are socialized differently in society, even regarding fighting. Most guys have some exposure to fighting through contact sports: boxing, wrestling (real and pro), childhood wrestling/fighting, and stuff like football. Guys may have some concept of boxing and violent movies when deciding to punch or fight. Women usually have less exposure to the constant choreographed violence of the media, combat sports, or good old schoolyard fights, so perhaps they simply fight in a way that is more natural and less a result of socialization. Or maybe they are socialized by girl fights. At any rate, to really study this, you’d have to view a whole lot of fights within the context of a whole bunch of cultures to come to any real conclusions.
Anyway, these are some theories I have. Anyone have any thoughts on any of this?
Sorry about the big rambling- I wrote a five page cultural anthropology paper yesterday, and I must still have some of that stuff in my head.The short answer: Push ups.
Most men have done alot of push ups, and these trained muscles come into play under stress. Also, as you said, all the contact sports, and atleast a few punches on a havy bag somewhere.
When I have seen children fighting, both boys and girls fight like girls 😕 I mean as you discribe, over hand striking down, sometimes with clawing motion. It seems to me to be the most natural, maybe going back to the way four legged animals run( sorry Creationists 😀 ). So adult women without pre-conditioning might still fight this way.
Also, the adult women I have seen fighting have been Gangster chicks or jealous women in bars. They seem to realize they are underpowered and go more for the claws and foot stomps, and really like to grab that hair and hold it while they scratch. One time this woman still had the other girls gold necklace clutched in her fist ten minutes later. We pointed it out to her and she true it at the wall and yelled some.
In WT we fight more like \”girls\” than with haymakers and overpowered hooks, as they work only if you land them perfect. but the over hand effect is streamlined into chain punching.
8)
I think partially this is a result of socialization and also intent. When men fight other men, their intent is to knock the other guy out or hurt them with concussive damage. when women fight other women, they are more interested in cosmetic damage. For example in my high school girls would hide box cutters in their fingers. They wouldn’t go for the throat but instead slice the face. Most women know how ugly scars are.They grab hair, because they tend to have more to grab so it’s a natural target. They swing up and down because they have longer nails and want to scratch. with training however, women and men adapt to other methods of attack.
as for animal examples, more quadripeds are built in a way that would make it very uncomfortable to generate a linear strike like a straight punch. However if ever watch monkeys and apes fight they will use haymakers all the time, as do bears. Besides why use knuckles that break when you’ve got claws. They don’t want to knock the animal out, but claw and rip, which is better accomplished with swinging attacks as it generates more momentum.although once I saw a group of baboons punch a croc which was attacking another baboon. They actually jumped on his back and punched till he let go.
when you give people knives, it is especially evident. Over 95% of men stab underarm, up towards the abdomen, and over 95% of women slash overarm, down towards the head. interesting.
Foxy
Personally, I think that socialization does have a lot to do with it. From an early age girls are encouraged to use their words or to walk away. It simply doesn’t occur to us to physically fight another woman a lot of the time, even in situations such as arguments in bars. Women are hostile to each other in more indirect ways, such as rumor spreading or sabotaging. But I don’t discount the effects of nature, either.
As to the fight-or-flight response, it’s my understanding that our different hormones don’t directly impact the neurotransmitters involved, and that we all experience similar effects (tunnel vision, decreased fine motor control, increased breathing, etc). But I’m not entirely certain.
It’s funny though, because despite the fact that boys are exposed to more violence through movies/sports/etc and that fighting between them is more socially acceptable, if you’ve ever seen two average guys fight, it’s really not that smooth. The timing, the strikes, everything just looks a little goofy. Both are usually posturing and both always seem surprised when the physical part begins. And I do think there’s that \”Um..what do I do now?\” aspect to it, just like with women who fight.I agree exactly with the socialization issue, espiially the cosmetic damage thing.
The animal thing I was meaning a running four legged animal moves its front legs from front to back. If you apply that direction to upright it would be from top down. This is a similear motion to the way an arm pitches a baseball, a dart throw, and a general shove away from your self. If you except the theory of evollution we where on all fours much longer than upright.
Some of us have had nightmares where we are scared and running and we get down on all fours and try pulling the ground with hands and arms to go faster. At least I have had these dreams. very weird, but it goes to show the Quadraped instinct is still in there.
If you can find video, watch how a kangaro punches or claws. Thats what I am talking about.
But your correct about primates that have rotator joints in shoulders also using haymakers.I have seen this aswell. I was just looking farther back in time. The Clawing strike from a bear is also very close to the way they run.
Another thing about socialization. I have always heard this notion that women arn’t as strong as men and have no chance. I believed it untell I did martial arts for a while. Unless it is Shaq or Andrew the Giant vs. a tiny petite women the size diff isn’t that great. Women can learn to kick but but they have been conditioned to think otherwise. They also have never been indoctrinated into the so called rules or fighting.
So when they do fight they go crazy, flailing and scratching and Maiming. In middle school it was fun to watch guys fight, but it was scary to watch girls fight!! Brutal!! Today alot of women are learning self defense and alot of media action heros are women. This notion of girls can’t fight is slowly leaving the culture, I hope.
Last, As an instructor I ran into another hurldle with girls. They often did not want to hurt anyone, and this made them very timid when training. Some refused to punch bags or targets. Some had trouble even watching free sparring. Since I teach WT/ Escrima I had other more peacful options for them. One time in a lecture I was having a girl punch away while I deflected and as I talked to the group, one punch slipped through and hit me in the face 😳 . I was so happy that this women was getting that good. She freaked out, wanted to sit down and not touch hands anymore. It was really hard for her to see it as training and non violent. I made her punch the wallbag to harness that adrenilene in a positive way.
But I am sure if it was a real life or death battle these same women would fight back hard. They are strong minded business types, they don’t take no for an answer, get what they demand. You know what I mean. It is just that they have this aversion to violence.
I think we had a long discussion about this last year on the Female warrior.
8)CaliWT, I’m not sure I agree that women who refuse to train realistically would fight back hard in a real life or death situation. I wouldn’t just assume that they would fight back, because they might not. Some women will endure a lot of abuse before getting over that \”I don’t wanna hurt anybody\” crap. I hope they’ll get over it in your classes rather than in a real-life scenario.
Men want to \”look good\” fighting. Simple as that. They may only have started provoking a fight just to impress people around them. Once commited they have to throw punches like they have seen. Problems are as most of us here know; seeing something and doing something are two different animals. That’s why most untrained fights look stupid and awkward. Wild haymakers and not knowing how to follow up a good or lucky hit. With women they usually don’t get into a fight to look good and impress people with their strength so they may flail arms and scratch faces and pull hair – which is very effective, but men don’t consider it \”manly\” to do so because after the fight they have to strut a little and it’s hard to do after his buds see him fighting any way other than \”duking it out\” with a fight ending punch to the face.
RE: the ineptitude of a woman’s inherent fighting ability.
Go to KMPA and ask about Athena. I’m sure she’ll obliterate your expectations of women and fighting.
He’s not talking about TRAINED fighters at the KMPA- he’s talking about untrained men and women and the differences. If we are starting another discussion of trained women fighters I think question is meaningless since they will train with men, like men and fight like trained men afterwards.
Just to clarify what I meant, I’m not saying that women don’t have inherent fighting ability, just that if women – or anyone for that matter – isn’t training realistically then there’s no reason to expect that they will defend themselves in a realistic situation. My comment above was about the idea that some women aren’t training the way they should be because they don’t like violence, but hopefully they will be able to defend themselves anyway. I wouldn’t bet someone’s safety on that.
I actually think women have several ADVANtAGES if they train to fight. I am just talking about generalitys between men and women.
Yes, these women may fail in real events, it is true. I was speaking more about the fact that they are very agressive in other non-violent situations. They typically can haggle a lower price or convince a boss or coworker to do something if the want to. (I am trying to not sound sexist here, please bear with me 😀 ). These girls are not push overs. It just seemed that without actual real violent confrontation they did not want to \”play fight\”. But they also didn’t seem like they would just \”ride it out\” in a bad situation.
One of them has been my girlfriend for 8 years. She took about 4 years of WT but really wasn’t into Fight Club kinda stuff. She is very non-violent, but if I push her shoulder he still automatically parrys with Tan sau and punches me back. Occasionally we do a little practice for fun, and we work on situational awarness stuff, but she is just not into training every week like we are. She likes yoga.
As is mentioned above, men have this ritualized combat dance, push me shove you thing, where as women do not. I like that \”surprized it went to a fight thing\”, I have seen that too.
On another angle, alot of women go to fight class to feel macho, a part of our modern socialization. They are attracted to the more aggresive, macho arts with alot of punching, kicking, and bag work. They are trying to fill in this percieved \”lack\” of aggresiveness in their lives. I am talking Tai Bo, Kickboxing at the gym stuff. I am more worried about these girls discovering they really have no clue how to fight than worrying about timid girls that are still resitant to punching bags and contact drills, but who are in some real life combative program.
There are ways to condition reflexs and stuff in a non-violent way.
I think socialization is individual and variable. Pecking orders at school, abusive parents, rough neighborhoods can all play a part. Motivation is individual too, but when I’ve watched those real-life murder shows, they often describe how the woman fought for her life. She lost, but not for lack of trying!
ITA with the comment about going for the face being more effective, though I’m not certain that an angry woman is really thinking about maiming as a long-term punishment. I think we instinctively know where the vulnerabilities are. Ever see a cat defend itself against a dog? They go for the eyes with their claws. (That’s how my dog lost her vision in one eye!) I think it’s possible that boys are socialized *out* of that instinct.
I didn’t say that one was necessarily better, it just is what it is, as I have seen it. And what I’ve said isn’t based on expectations- its based on observations.
I disagree that guys try to look good when they fight. Its a statement that kind of sounds reasonable, but really doesn’t hold a lot of weight in actual fights.
I once saw two homeless guys get in a fight in a secluded area. There was the same motion I described earlier. I doubt they were trying to look good for each other or me, who they probably didn’t notice.quote :On another angle, alot of women go to fight class to feel macho, a part of our modern socialization. They are attracted to the more aggresive, macho arts with alot of punching, kicking, and bag work. They are trying to fill in this percieved \”lack\” of aggresiveness in their lives. I am talking Tai Bo, Kickboxing at the gym stuff. I am more worried about these girls discovering they really have no clue how to fight than worrying about timid girls that are still resitant to punching bags and contact drills, but who are in some real life combative program.I’m glad someone else said this first. I take Krav for self defense, I’m not the most timid of women, but I certainly have no aspirations to be the next female WWF symbol. It took a couple weeks to really feel out how hard I could hit and now it’s only an issue when I’m doing redman.
Girls/women who take Krav \”to feel macho\” make me very uncomfortable. I can’t exactly explain why, but I hate getting partnered with a women who’s more macho than the guys in the class. Girl fights are generally associated with lower socio-economic status, and so far, the \”macho\” girls I’ve worked with in Krav have been from that same class. Please don’t flame me for saying that, that’s just been my experience to date.
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