Edged Weapons

[kirsten]

Okay, just a disclaimer…. The following video is a bit graphic for some so make sure your kids are not in the room and your spouse isn’t eating dinner next to you.

http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=946F98D9CA957DA6

I do not see the need to “get certified” in the use of my personal “seatbelt multi-tool” knife, as it is not issued by my department and considered a tool on my sam-brown. I would use a pen to kill if I had to, don’t see the need to “get certified” to carry that either… I know, deadly weapon vs. dangerous weapon, but you get my point.

Okay, now to address the actual tactics in the video. He looks like he is very skilled at knife fighting however I see little to address the threat of continued attacks. I see the redirect, but only a very small counter attack is made. I do like that he addresses the thought of disengaging, but would like to see it after he has stopped the actual attack.

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

Looks loosely FMA based. Not sure what the point of that video was – I can’t think of anything edged weapons related that I would be able to introduce/demo/teach in 1:50, especially if you want to take additional time to show graphic pictures. Maybe – here is what can happen if you get cut or stabbed, do your best not to get cut or stabbed – Next topic… ;):

[cjs-dad]

Re: Edged Weapons

Let me preface this by saying edged weapons has kinda been my thing long before FORCE or KM training. Suffice to say that means I’m really comfortable in a knife on knife situation.

Having said that given the choice would common sense not dictate to escalate to a higher level of force if available?

Cause I’m thinking make space deploy the minute I access the threat.

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

quote CJs Dad:

Let me preface this by saying edged weapons has kinda been my thing long before FORCE or KM training. Suffice to say that means Iím really comfortable in a knife on knife situation.

Having said that given the choice would common sense not dictate to escalate to a higher level of force if available?

Cause Iím thinking make space deploy the minute I access the threat.

I agree. Creating an opportunity to deploy something better than my empty hands is my highest priority. If I have the opportunity to damage the BG to create that opening, great – if not, I’d be happy to play ‘chase me in circles around this car until I get my gun out’ too. lol

[kirsten]

Re: Edged Weapons

I thought the mention of a knife might get you going Sean! Absolutely if you have space, time, cover, etc, then immediate access of higher force is a priority. But like always, train from a position of disadvantage… 🙂

You may not be able to access your firearm right away. I am not sure that I really like the actual techniques, as there are so many of them and seem complicated to me.

I am currently training a university department of public safety and they are prohibited by Oregon’s Universty system to carry firearms. So they only carry batons and OC spray, no matter what they do they can only go with those two. Two of the officers (one a good friend) were nearly killed last year in a fight. They were badly beaten and the suspect tried to drown them.

We have so little time to train due to injuries, vacations, budget issues, etc. I would hate to spend 8 hours struggling with a complicated defense.

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

There are some things I carry that are not specifically permitted by policy. I figure, if I have to use them, policy won’t be high on my list of concerns at that moment. If they help me get home at night, I’d more than happy to face the music later.

IIRC, Oregon is pretty lenient when it comes to carrying knives. How does your friend feel about carrying a knife or two? A job is just a job…

[kirsten]

Re: Edged Weapons

LOL.. so true!

Knives are fine to carry, and if your justified in your use of force than the delivery method is of no importance. However I am not sure about the campus safety officers. I know we are scheduled for edged weapons training soon with them.

I have not heard of a department up here actually having a policy on it, though it is being tried. If it is implemented it sounds like another weapon we need to have additional training on… and who has a budget for that these days???

What about your agency, do they have a knife policy?

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

I was thinking that if students are allowed to carry a knife on campus, then the only thing that would prevent a security officer from carrying one would be company policy (and if you had to choose between serious bodily injury or death and following company policy/keeping your job :dunno: )

Our policy basically gives us the option of carrying a knife – folding type with a certain length when closed, carried either in a case on the duty belt or in a pocket with a pocket clip. The good thing is that, last time I checked, none of our policies addresses the issue(s) of using the knife as a weapon. More leeway that way (I am much more in favor of less restrictive policies when it comes to use of force).

I don’t agree with everything in this article but it IS good food for thought:
http://www.borelliconsulting.com/articles/pdkniferegs.htm

[dugfoot]

Re: Edged Weapons

I’m not particularly impressed with this presentation. I see too many flaws in his thought process about how someone will actually attack you with a knife.

This instructor seems to be following the Filipino knife fighting curriculum. They are great knife fighters but it seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that most Filipino knife stuff seems to be based on the premise that you realize and accept that you are in a knife fight.

On duty, in the past 3 years there has been three stabbings in my patrol area and I was primary responder on 2 of them. What was common on all three was that they “victim” didn;t realize it was a knife fight. In only one case did the victim actually see the knife at the last second and got his forearm up similiar to a Krav Maga 360 defense. The knife was deeply imbeded in his forearm when I arrived.

In another case, a smaller male was being out-boxed by a much larger male. The smaller one suddenly struck the larger in the face with what witnessed described as similiar to our hammer fist. The knife went into the victims face up to the hilt, through his upper lip, just below the nose. The tip of the knife stopped about 1 inch away from the brain.

It is cases like these that I see the real logic of the knife defenses Krav Maga uses since they will work against a punch or a knife. And should someone use what others have described as the sewing machine type assaults, similiar to what you see in prisons, then getting your arm between you and them while counter-punching, IMHO, is your best bet. If someone is grabbing you and trying to stab you as hard and as fast as they possibly can, you probably will not be able to disengage and/or go to a higher level of force. Nothing drives me crazier than seeing video after video of officers trying to get something off their bat-belt while the bad guy is wearing them out. It’s a fight…so fight!!

One of out training officers, who is also a Krav Maga student, recently attended a South Narc knife defense seminar and had nothing but praise for it. Is anyone else here familiar with it?

I have been making it a point to study more knife stuff because I’m finding more and more of them on the bad guys/girls, especially those with mental illness.

Here in Ohio, at the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy, they have a program called S.L.A.S.H.E.S. that was developed by Shawn Chitwood. I have trained with Shawn in the past and all of his stuff is pretty good. I own the SLASHES DVD and I like alot of what i see on it.

[kirsten]

Re: Edged Weapons

Thank you for the breakdown of the video. I can’t say it enough, I really appreciate that you guys are posting more on here. Please, start threads and keep the topics coming. I may have some bribe gifts in the future for awesome posts… 🙂

I have never heard of either SLASHES or South Narc but I am going to check it out, thanks for the info.

[dugfoot]

Re: Edged Weapons

The newest issue of S.W.A.T. magazine has an interesting article on knife fighting while actually using a knife instead of empty-hand vs knife.
The name of the article is D.I.Y. Knife Training and actually has some pretty good tips. I am curious if anyone else has seen tthis article, and if so, what do you think?

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

Haven’t read it. Does it talk about targeting vital areas? Are you able to scan it?

[dugfoot]

Re: Edged Weapons

It doesn’t talk too much about targeting but it does talk about setting up a cardboard targeting system so you can test if a knife will really hold up to the hard striking/cutting of a knife engagement. That is the part that I got the most out of.
I don’t have a scanner so I am unable to scan and send it to you. Used to have one but its d.r.t. now and I haven’t replaced it.

[msgmarine]

Re: Edged Weapons

Interesting Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcZdVfWGAQ4

[don]

Re: Edged Weapons

another oldie but a goodie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc2fyEa_RkA

tragedy can occur if, when the green light is on, you hesitate to use force and/or don’t use enough force – especially in deadly force situations…

[Author]

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