Home Forums Krav Maga Worldwide Forums KM Techniques & Krav Maga Books Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

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  • #33323
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    I intend to bring this up in my class next time I’m in, but I figured I’d throw it out here as well. The gun defenses I’ve seen are primarily from a stick up/gun threat situation. While there certainly is a threat that you will be shot, the subject is more interested in using the gun as a form of power than killing you at that moment. With what seems like a rise in active shooters, especially in ‘gun free’ zones, the best defense is likely to attempt to overtake the attacker. At least if you couldn’t live with yourself knowing you got away while a bunch of other people died, and you did nothing.

    My question then, is how things change when you are dealing with an active threat, either to yourself or a 3rd party? Situations for something like this would be along the lines of in a protective detail situation where a gunman draws with intent to shoot the principle, or in a LEO/military situation where proximity and lack of reaction time make drawing your own weapon impractical to deal with the threat, or obviously, dealing with an active shooter when you yourself aren’t armed. I’m guessing the principles remain the same, but are there any differences in technique?

    Obviously, a knife stab or slash attack is much different from a knife threat, so the defenses are very different, but it seems like a gun defense from any angle that you could perceive the threat would largely stay the same. If it’s from the rear, you are likely going to get shot before you know there’s a gun in play.

    Thanks.

    #84530

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    I’d go with overtaking the attacker if you’re close enough, finding cover or making distance if not. If you have nothing to return fire with, don’t maneuver on the attacker. If he/she is within arm’s distance, grab hold and go to town. Because I was a Marine, because I was Infantry, if there is an active threat and I can engage while minimizing fratricide, I will maneuver to and fire upon the threat. Active shooters generally don’t stop themselves as long as targets are present and no threat to themselves has been presented.

    #84535
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    Certainly valid points, but that is more of the tactical approach to it (which plays a large part), and my question was more directed to the actual technique side of things. Once the decision has been made to engage a shooter without a firearm (maybe an improvised weapon is available), what techniques would change, stay the same, or could be developed to keep to the principles of Krav Maga, and effectively eliminate the threat. I’d hope that anyone carrying a weapon would be of sound mind to manuever and fire on an active shooter, but since our society likes to limit when and where a law abiding citizen may carry a firearm, that often is not possible, and it seems active shooters target these environments specifically at times.

    #84540

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    If one must engage, lacking a firearm, someone who does have a firearm, I think the overall goal should be to remove their means of attack, or remove their physical and mental ability to attack. Taking away the firearm removes their first deadly force option, although they could be carrying another firearm, a knife, or have an armed partner present. Failing the ability of opportunity to remove the means of attack, removing the physical and mental ability of the person to attack should be the next priority. Breaking the arm, gouging out an eye, stomping on the inside of a knee, are good targets. Any of those should cause a serious interruption to the assailant’s OODA loop, and the defender could exploit this interruption and hesitation to remove the assailant’s deadly force option, and/or escape the situation. If the defender is not close to the assailant, and has no means of escape (jumping out the 5th floor window of an office building could produce the same effect as being shot) having a shield to enable them to maneuver to the assailant is a good goal. As crappy as it might be, a defender may have to exploit someone else’s misfortune, at being targeted by the assailant, to accomplish his/her goal of eliminating the threat. That isn’t something any of us want to do, and is a hard decision to make. Do you warn someone about to unknowingly walk right into the gunman, risking getting yourself killed in the process, or do you let them distract him and possibly provide you the opportunity you need to eliminate the threat, at the risk of them losing their life? If you were the intended target and are out of arm’s reach, more than likely there isn’t anything you can do other than try to take cover and hope they are ignorant enough to move closer to you instead of keeping distance and trying to establish a better angle.

    #84541
    don
    Member

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    Hit him with a brick when he’s not looking… ;):

    #84546

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    Well, I suppose that would work if you wanted to do it the easy way. lol

    #84547
    don
    Member

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    lol

    principles – swift, sudden, committed, incapacitating technique(s) ideally carried out with the element of surprise… 🙂

    there used to be a neck snapping montage video on youtube that I had wanted to link to here but I can’t find it anymore… 🙁

    #84549

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    There is really no difference in the application of the principles despite the situation. Redirect, Control, Attack, Takeaway. While the last two can be interchanged based on the situation, there can be no complete deviation without rendering it “not” Krav Maga. What you’re talking about is a tactical issue, not a technique issue. It seems like a small matter of semantics, but confusing the two leads to entropy and failure. It’s very similar to the difference between tactics and strategy. You can’t have one without the other, but they are very different and not interchangeable. Great conversation though, hopefully it leads to some great dialogue.

    #84550

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    I didn’t like my last post, so I modified it a bit….
    There is really no difference in the application of the principles regardless of the situation. Redirect, Control, Attack, Takeaway. While the last two can be interchanged based on the situation, there can be no complete deviation without rendering it “not” Krav Maga. For instance, you may need to redirect in a different direction to avoid covering a hostage, but that’s not a modification of a technique, it’s a tactical application of an existing technique. The principles ALWAYS trump the technique. What you’re talking about is a tactical issue, not a technique issue. It seems like a small matter of semantics, but confusing the two leads to entropy and failure. It’s very similar to the difference between tactics and strategy. You can’t have one without the other, but they are very different and not interchangeable. Situation guides strategy, strategy guides tactics, tactics direct technique, principles don’t change regardless of any of the above. Great conversation though, hopefully it leads to some great dialogue.

    #84554
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Gun Defense for Imminent Shooting?

    Thanks Jeremy for chiming in. I can’t remember if I was watching a movie, or saw something on the news, watched youtube vid, etc. but I knew if I didn’t field it somewhere, I’d forget about it by the next time I came in. That was largely my understanding, because, as you always maintain, the principles are the driving force of Krav, and the techniques and tactics are simply products of the principles.
    I just figured that I can’t be the only one that has asked himself that ‘what if’ question. I was curious what answers others had found on the subject.

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