September 13, 2006 at 9:17 pm #49621
I’m just thinking, though, even if they learned it, as a police officer, aren’t you usually trained to make distance if you feel the need to employ your weapon?
Even more so, which is where the gun retention comes in, if you see a suspect carrying a gun, wouldn’t you take cover and draw your own weapon, call for back up etc? How often does it happen that you find yourself in a situation where a suspect draws a gun and you try to grab it and struggle for it?
It just seems that there wouldn’t be very many situations in which a police officer grabs a suspect’s gun and he then does a KM gun retention technique to put the officer back in the line of fire.
I guess it could happen, but then again those other scenarios, about the civilians needing gun retention techniques could happen also, so maybe it’s a toss up.
GiantkillerSeptember 13, 2006 at 11:59 pm #49622ryanMember
GK, your ignorance in this area is glaring. Criminals do countertraining all the time. There are numerous surveillance videos out there of criminals training to defeat the retention of holsters. They don’t have to train to level 5, they just have to peruse internet forums or find a helpful but gullible instructor. 😉
The issue is, if a criminal knows what an officer may do to retain his weapon, it is that much easier to disarm the officer.
I say we close this discussion.September 14, 2006 at 6:31 am #49624
Well now we see why I choose to avoid the forum. I think we can talk about things with out all of the hostility.
GK has questions, ones that shouldn’t be discussed here. He knows now, but we don’t need to resort to being mean to him. It is our job to teach Krav Maga even in light of adversity and difficulty. As instructors I think we can help him without degrading him…
GK, I encourage you to contact your instructor/s and ask them your questions either before or after class. Perhaps you will be able to better convey your questions and concerns and get the answers you are looking for.
Be safe.September 14, 2006 at 8:45 pm #49630
Okay, I guess, if we can’t talk about it here…
But that’s kind of what I meant, there just seems to be an extraordinary amount of secrecy, which somewhat surprises me.
Of course, I wouldn’t want to endanger the lives of police officers, but would it really be that big of a problem?
If gang members can join the army, they might as well join the KM instructor’s course and learn the gun retention there and tell their buddies. So, if they really wanted to learn it, they might still find a way, yet as a long time civilian practitioner I’m not allowed to know, even though some of these techniques could be important to me one day. Not so much the one about the holster, as I have said, but mostly what to do if someone grabs a weapon I’m holding.
I asked one instructor a while back and he didn’t divulge the secret and just explained that the reason for the secrecy was that they didn’t want to endanger police officers, which makes a lot of sense at first glance, but I found, thinking about it some more, I just wasn’t sure how much of a problem it would really represent.
But it might be a problem, that’s why I asked some questions to find out. But it’s okay, if we can’t talk about it…
GiantkillerSeptember 14, 2006 at 9:30 pm #49632
Yep- it would be a big problem.
I am not going to gamble the life of an officer to satisfy one’s curiosity. I do not even like the fact that civilian instructors are familiar with LE, even though it is a little different, still not an advocate of it. But it’s the way it is. As we know life is not fair… we have to have to learn to accept what we cannot change. 😉September 14, 2006 at 9:44 pm #49633
So, just generally speaking, when dealing with an armed suspect, does it happen frequently that a police officer would have to use a hand defense against that suspect (and thus the suspect could use the gun retention technique against him/her)?
Also, how often are you so close to the suspect that he will be able to grab the gun (again, not talking about the holster situation, just that you have drawn the gun and now the suspect gets close enough to try and grab it)? In those cases, wouldn’t a suspect, who knows the regular KM gun defense, also present a problem and should we stop teaching that defense to civilians for that reason?
Does anyone know if there have been proven instances of gang members, or other criminals, learning Krav Maga on a large scale?
Again, not trying to be aggressive, I agree we shouldn’t endanger police officers, just wondering in general.
GiantkillerSeptember 14, 2006 at 10:36 pm #49634
GK, I mean no disrespect but I cannot further this discussion other than to say this:
While I applaud your genuine interest in retention, there are 545 Officers that have been killed in the line of duty. Of those, 268 have been killed from a distance of 0 feet to 5 feet. KM Force Training and KMWW have very good reasons for being secret… 545 reasons to be exact.
It is not the appropriate place to discuss specific LE tactics. Please try to understand… We just want to go home each night and if it means you suffer a feeling of being excluded, then I am sorry but it is for the greater good. Again, please try to understand…
TomoeSeptember 15, 2006 at 1:32 am #49635
Tomoe, you realise you just did exactly what you chastised another instructor for. As you might have just realised, on a forum , often times there’s no way to make a point without coming off as abrasive, irregadless of intent.September 15, 2006 at 3:28 am #49636
Andre… please do point out where exactly I insulted him and called him names because I do not see it. I do not think he is ignorant, nor did I chastise him cruely.
I only gave evidence to show why we should not continue talk about specifics. I didn’t just call him names to get him to stop. I tried to show him WHY we needed to stop. Teaching involves showing one the way, not just telling…
Regardless I don’t think there is any other way to interpret calling someone ignorant than as hostile. But I guess every teacher has their way of handling students… Your’s and Ryan’s is just different than my approach so let’s agree to disagree.September 15, 2006 at 5:40 am #49638
You subtly \”come off\” as insulting to GK, by stating numerous facts, and that its all about getting home safely(which it is) and basically stating, that GK doesn’t need to be concerned, and should go about GK’s business.(Which we all should on this thread) Essentially dismissing GK’s inquires. It’s no different then what was said previously, especially taking into account their history of forum discussions.
And last time I checked ignorance isn’t an insult, rather a adjective describing ones lack of knowledge in a certain area, especially if it applies to the recipient.
By the way, you assumed/proved GK to be \”ignorant\” of the need for \”secrecy\”, so you espoused some facts to englighten, right?
Like I said, no matter how you say things sometimes, they just won’t come out cordial. And despite what you appearently might be thinking, I don’t speak pejoratively to, or of my students.September 15, 2006 at 6:04 am #49640kravmdjeffMember
I edited my comments that outlined specific LEO tactics based upon Tomoe’s and Ryan’s points. Thanks, guys, for increasing my sensitivity to that stuff.September 15, 2006 at 6:07 am #49641kravmdjeffMember
Tomoe, just re-read your comment about civilians learning gun-retention tactics. I think I agree, but I have a question when it comes to instructors.
What is your opinion on civilian force training? Is it a good idea?September 15, 2006 at 7:39 am #49642
Andrea, please don’t put words in my mouth. That’s not what I said and you can imply or try to make it look like I said \”whatever\” but I clearly did not. It’s in black and white on the page- spin it if you like, but it remains just that.
I really donít care about GK’s history on the forum. I only wish to see every eager mind treated more respectfully. I feel that I responded to the post with respect for GK’s interest in the subject. I offered a police officer’s view on WHY we should stop the thread and did it in a manner that was both informative and polite and explained the seriousness of it to one that has no LE experience or exposure.
GK, feel free to PM me and I will be happy to answer your questions with respect to certain information and the need to be \”secret\”. 😉 sorry if that offends… I don’t care if you hold unpopular ideas. There has been many an unpopular opinion in society that was later found to be just… so you \”go girl\”!September 15, 2006 at 7:46 am #49643
Sorry, KravMDjeff I did not see your last post.
I think that I see many people on the LE site that do just what you describe. 😉
As for civilian instructors, it has all been said already. Feel free to PM me regarding it, I do not want to eat up more thread beating a dead horse. As I said before… we can’t stress about that which we cannot change. 😉September 15, 2006 at 11:46 am #49644
Now I remember why I stayed away for 6 months.
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