haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

[tech94]

hey im not trying to say this is better than that or criticize in anyway, but i have a question about the gun defense used in km. when the gun is in front and aimed high like say your chest or head, in km the defense is to redirect to the side while in haganah its redirect upwards. in jkd we dont have gun defense scenario training per se and i feel its a hole in my tool bag. i personally think that redirecting laterally may endanger those around you (if there is anyone around you like a friend or spouse) while upward redirection seems ‘safer’ to by standers. is there a reason that km uses the lateral redirection? has it been proven to be the better way? im not trying to stir up any controversy and i realize that haganah/fight has derived alot of their techniques from km just looking for some insight i guess. as i said we dont have emoty hand vs gun defense in jkd that i would attempt to apply

[cjs-dad]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

Hmmm
In HaganaH its hands at the side of your body making a toy soldier like movement hand comes up shortest line possible redirecting the muzzle of the gun while making an upper torso movement. Opposite hand comes up grabs rear of weapon in two handed control (cupping) then kick to groin you break/take weapon while backing away from attacker checking surrounding area for additional bad guys tap/rack bring back online.

In KM its hands at the side of your body making a toy soldier like movement hand comes up shortest line possible redirecting the muzzle of the gun while making an upper torso movement. Extending your arm locking out the elbow you burst forward punching your top two knuckles into the attackers hip while maintaining pressure on the weapon. Simultaneously you straight punch attackers face recoil punch trace inside of your stable arm going to rear of weapon you break/take weapon while backing away from attacker checking surrounding area for additional bad guys tap/rack bring back online.

HaganaH prefers to go straight to two handed cupping…. That’s the only difference. The initial redirection of the muzzle is exactly the same.
Conversely moving the weapon upwards leaves the weapon online MUCH longer. If theres someone standing to my right I’m not redirecting with my left hand I take the weapon to my left side using my right hand.

[tech94]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

thanks for your response. again I have no experience or personal training in it, and i’ve only seen video of the HaganaH defense. the link below has vidoe demonstrating the defense and he redirects the gun upwards http://www.rockawayfight.com/programs_haganah.html. curiously i see in their still photos the gun does infact seem to be redirected laterally

[tigeruppercut]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

I can see the point of the gun defense from the video if there are people on all sides of you, but even with that I saw a few potential errors.

First if the gun is pointed at your chest instead of your head you have to redirect the line of fire past your head until you are out of danger. That is the last place you want the line of fire.

Second if the attacker pulls back on the weapon, maybe falling or just steping back, he could still gain control of the weapon. The counter attack is used to change the attacker / victim roll so that you can take the offensive. This disarm seems to count on speed to do that.

Lastly, if the attacker holds the gun a different way the defense may not work the same. One of the main principles of Krav is keep it simple so you are not thinking about situational attacks or attacker position, you can work the defense from may different angles and situations.

[mariusnc]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

“It’s a tactical mistake to make this defense”. Yeah, that’s why in KM we redirect the gun to the ground. I’m also not so sure how well this disarm would work in a real life situation when the attacker has a tight grip. Can someone who has done this disarm give some input?

I’m not knocking it, since I’m still a rookie, but this doesn’t convince me. The attacks in the videos are pretty weak (a common problem in such videos) and I just don’t know how well it would work in real life. Am I wrong?

[xgatorx]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

If the gun is pointed in your face going up would be the call. If it’s at your chest then to the left or right would be the way to go. That video shows the gun to your forehead.

[cjs-dad]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

quote xGATORx:

If the gun is pointed in your face going up would be the call. If it’s at your chest then to the left or right would be the way to go. That video shows the gun to your forehead.

Agreed, as I illustrated above.

quote TigerUpperCut:

I can see the point of the gun defense from the video if there are people on all sides of you, but even with that I saw a few potential errors.

There is no wrong or right, only options with varying degrees of success.

quote :

First if the gun is pointed at your chest instead of your head you have to redirect the line of fire past your head until you are out of danger. That is the last place you want the line of fire.

True but then you would do a different defense

quote :

Second if the attacker pulls back on the weapon, maybe falling or just steping back, he could still gain control of the weapon. The counter attack is used to change the attacker / victim roll so that you can take the offensive. This disarm seems to count on speed to do that.

And timing, the same as going directly to two handed cupping, if you blow the initial grab you have issues. In addition the disarm in this particular defense is more based on strength then leverage/pain compliance which breaks our smallest or average person principle.

quote :

Lastly, if the attacker holds the gun a different way the defense may not work the same. One of the main principles of Krav is keep it simple so you are not thinking about situational attacks or attacker position, you can work the defense from many different angles and situations.

As I said above circumstance will dictate response there is no absolute defense because the attack is organic and you need to be able to go with it and act accordingly.

quote MariusNC:

“It’s a tactical mistake to make this defense”. Yeah, that’s why in KM we redirect the gun to the ground. I’m also not so sure how well this disarm would work in a real life situation when the attacker has a tight grip. Can someone who has done this disarm give some input?

I think I covered this above already but basically yes it works its just more a ìlearnedî technique which requires a certain skill level. And unfortunately in strength on strength battle might be problematic for a smaller individual.

quote :

I’m not knocking it, since I’m still a rookie, but this doesn’t convince me. The attacks in the videos are pretty weak (a common problem in such videos) and I just don’t know how well it would work in real life. Am I wrong?

In terms of the techniques shown in those videos will they work? Absolutely! However they are simply options in a set of circumstance.

And as a point of clarification Id reached instructor level in HaganaH/FIGHT before coming to KMWW. So I do have somewhat of a frame of reference.

In the end we take what we like, discard what we donít and pray the day never comes when we need to use it.

[kirsten]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

I am not going to really address the initial post as I believe that CJ’s Dad has answered that perfectly. But I do have something else to say. I applaud the concern over the bystanders, especially when its a loved one on the defense side… but just an FYI (because I keep hearing this statement here over, and over again on this forum and it causes me some concern) YOU as a defender are not criminally negligent if you make a defense against an attack (with weapon or without) and a bystander gets hurt. The ATTACKER is the one in trouble. Is there a risk? Possible, but better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

We are taking the “lawsuit” nation way too far and overly worrying about it. The attacker will be bearing the weight on this, it has been proven time and time again in case law. When you decide to do something stupid, you will have to bear any consequences, even unforeseen ones, when you do it. Look at Hulk Hogan’s son, he didn’t mean to seriously injure his friend, but that’s one of the things he is sitting in the county lock up for. We see programs like CDT and such that make their money on scaring the crap out of people training in real self-defense by beating on the “liability drum”. Making you think that if you injure somebody when you are defending yourself you will lose your life, your home, your freedom. But that you can defend because you are ALIVE.

I only say all of this because I am worried this bystander attitude is getting blown out of proportion and rookies are going to spend too much time thinking about all of this when presented with a threat. Seconds matter and the more choices we make, the less successful we become when making a defense. This is a principle of KM philosophy. Also, if you make a gun defense, the redirect does not always go to the ground… gun from behind when you catch at the arm- its still pointed behind you… (can they crack off a round? Sure) gun defense from the side and in front of the arm- gun MAY be still pointed mid level (can they crack off a round? Sure)… rifle defenses- same thing.

We make the quickest redirect and get it off of you the most direct way. Body mechanics show that taking it off the head to the side is more efficient than off via up to the top of the head… BTW, that was how my last agency did it and it terrified me watching all these cops train in that. A round makes a nasty mess out of your face at close range. For those with more (I mean A LOT MORE) training or are in LE, then yes-this is another factor, just as checking your backdrop in a shootout. But many cops have been able to defend this due to “rapidly evolving and dynamic situations” necessitating their actions.

[leejam99]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

quote MariusNC:

“It’s a tactical mistake to make this defense”

I hate broad statements like this. What if your in 3rd party situation and you asset is directly behind you and much taller?!? you just shot his head off by redirecting up and ducking using his rational. Will this defense work? probably. Is KM’s defense better? probably but I’m a bit bias. The more important thing to learn is the principle of the gun defense and not just the particular technique. The principle states that:

1) redirect the line of fire. This should be in consideration of what is the shortest line off your body and what am I redirecting to. Meaning you can’t just come out and say that you HAVE to redirect over head or to the right side, etc. Its all depends on the situation.

2) Control the weapon, 3) counterattack, 4) takeaway/disarm.

[ryan]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

In addition to some of the other technical points made here, the two hand defense Mike makes in the vid is also a bigger movement than our typical defense.

[brentw]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

I actually don’t like the straight up defense. It just goes against too many principles for me. It does not take you safer as the line of fire travels off; it does just the opposite. I have tried it with someone who knows the defense well and I don’t like the control. It was too easy to back up and regain control because you do not take the gun where a reasonable attacker would recoil it to – and try shooting your hips back, reacting to the groin strike and see where the weapon goes. If this guy was going to kill you and your family (the only time you should be making a defense) and you are the only one standing in the way of him and them and you get shot in the head – everybody dies; he gets away. It is a hard decision but you can make adjustments to the Krav technique, bigger redirection, going the opposite direction, more wrist torque, once offline then you can adjust up or down, etc. I will stick with the defense that gives me the best odds of survival and has sound tactics.

Now I will say straight up has it’s own special application – you are on an entry team and there are other people behind you backing you up. Now taking it up isn’t as bad because you don’t need as much control due to the good guys with guns who got your back and they are very thankful.

Sorry for the rant, I just have had this argument too often.

[munster]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

quote tech94:

hey im not trying to say this is better than that or criticize in anyway, but i have a question about the gun defense used in km. when the gun is in front and aimed high like say your chest or head, in km the defense is to redirect to the side while in haganah its redirect upwards. in jkd we dont have gun defense scenario training per se and i feel its a hole in my tool bag. i personally think that redirecting laterally may endanger those around you (if there is anyone around you like a friend or spouse) while upward redirection seems ‘safer’ to by standers. is there a reason that km uses the lateral redirection? has it been proven to be the better way? im not trying to stir up any controversy and i realize that haganah/fight has derived alot of their techniques from km just looking for some insight i guess. as i said we dont have emoty hand vs gun defense in jkd that i would attempt to apply

My unit sent me to a course last yr and I asked our instructor (who was certified in israel however not part of KMWW) about this and to me yes it has its advantages and disadvantages like every other move out there and needs to be executed with speed and surprise (pretty much like every technique in martial arts). This particular move in question is basically just another tool for the tool box. You may (hopefully) never have to use it you may use something else you learned, or may be put into a situation where it may be the best option (3rd party etc). I mean the criteria for executing it was you had to have your hands up (the usual position of disadvantage ie evasion situation or just outright oh Im “surprised” lol) and need to be extremely close meaning you had to some how close the gap (verbal judo with a nice distractor or playing scared sh**less all situation dictating of course) and then execute the move. Like I said just another tool for the tool box man another way of getting the job done so to speak.

[seeq-qc]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

Good post! Personally, criminal liability for my actions isn’t the main concern in this situation…it’s using a gun defense that could get a friend of loved one killed. I try to train so that I can reflexively mount the defense to the left or right.

quote Kirsten:

I am not going to really address the initial post as I believe that CJís Dad has answered that perfectly. But I do have something else to say. I applaud the concern over the bystanders, especially when its a loved one on the defense side… but just an FYI (because I keep hearing this statement here over, and over again on this forum and it causes me some concern) YOU as a defender are not criminally negligent if you make a defense against an attack (with weapon or without) and a bystander gets hurt. The ATTACKER is the one in trouble. Is there a risk? Possible, but better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[kirsten]

Re: haganah gun defense compared to krav gun defense

quote seeq_QC:

Good post! Personally, criminal liability for my actions isn’t the main concern in this situation…it’s using a gun defense that could get a friend of loved one killed. I try to train so that I can reflexively mount the defense to the left or right.

EXACTLY!! And you should. But some people worry overly about every person in the vicinity.. which, just an FYI to those of you that do this- a round- depending on the calibre, etc. can travel well over a mile… that’s an aweful lot of worry… Like Sam said about bystandards in Israel “They shouldn’t have been there anyway!” lol (JK)

Make the defense, practice left and right hands, redirect and cupping techniques, then let it go to court if need be…

[Author]

Posts