Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #47094
    psyops
    Member

    Yes!

    I see your point and it is valid. However I think that too much time is spent training from an MMA standpoint. The point should be to pluck, buck, and get up. We show spinning kicks to our students for the purpose that you stated. However we have a rule during sparring anyone who attempts a spinning kick does 30 pushups per kick. They are not to be used because in the street anything that has a greater degree of difficulty should be avoided!

    #47104
    anonymous
    Member

    Hmmm, I don’t know if that’s a good idea. I can see your point, generally simple works best in the street, but in some situations, maybe a spinning kick is the best weapon (for example, if you are surprised by an attacker, who comes at you from behind, your quickest option may be to spin, because you are already halfway there.

    By \”punishing\” students, you are only limiting their options. Also, you are taking away the ability for their partners to learn to see the kick and react to it appropriately.

    #47107
    psyops
    Member

    Spinning kicks are bullshit!

    This is the problem with Krav right now. Too many god damn wannabe ninjas and cage grapplers. How many fights have you been involved in? I grew up in the hood. Oakland specifically. Fighting is a way of life. Shit we had to brawl just to survive. Spinning kicks in a street fight? WTF? Who are you kidding? This is one of the most difficult kicks to pull off! We should be spending time teaching students techniques that are easy to apply and equally brutal when need be.

    GK,

    The average student does not want this. They want \”basic\” self defense techniques. There is nothing basic about a spinning kick. Yes we show them so that they can react properly. However it is shown maybe a handful of times in a year. In other words get good at the basics and all of that stuff will come. That is a level 3 technique at best. Level 1 and 2 students should be working front kicks and round kicks primarily. I mean even side kicks are rarely used in street fights. Dude , you gotta keep shit simple. I know that you want to do more things to expand your fight game but suggesting that students learn spin kicks so they have more options is just silly. Too many things can go wrong when trying to execute more difficult moves.

    The average student is barely going to remember how to defend and move and breathe during a conflict! You have to understand and remember why Krav is effective! It is simple. If you as a level 5 student want to execute spin kicks it is because you have the skill to do so. Level 1 and 2 don’t . The fancier moves should be left to the movies a la Jean Claude Van Damme!

    Just my thoughts.

    #47108
    g-v
    Member

    Re:

    quote \”Giantkiller\:

    Hmmm, I don’t know if that’s a good idea. I can see your point, generally simple works best in the street, but in some situations, maybe a spinning kick is the best weapon (for example, if you are surprised by an attacker, who comes at you from behind, your quickest option may be to spin, because you are already halfway there.

    That’s more of a mule kick, no? That’s a good kick.

    #47112
    clfmak
    Member

    Psyops- what do you think of the spinning backfist, or spinning elbow? The reason I ask- there are times when spinning attacks work well. Lets say I throw a front or side kick and my opponent scoops it to the side with lots of force. I am not spinning myself- I have been spun. Which will be faster- an attack launched from the position thats been forced upon me, using the momentum for a really powerful strike/kick, or stop the momentum myself, recover to a fighting stance, and counterattack? Or, another scenario- I throw a roundhouse kick to the knee/thigh/ribs/whatever and I miss because I misjudged the range or they avoid it. Because I wanted to kick really hard, I messed up and overcommitted and I end up spinning past where I want to be. Again, I can either stop myself and correct myself back to a fighting stance (a good time to use that seldom seen side kick), or I can spin through to launch that attack. The spinning kick is useful in the same instances where the spinning backfist or spinning elbow are useful. These sort of attacks are common enough in Pride, muay thai, kyokushin, etc. Bas Rutten has done some damage with spinning backhands. It used to be a legit technique in bareknuckle boxing. Although these are all \”sports\”, as you’ll probably point out, these sports show us that these moves knock people out. Also, MMA matches show us that a spinning backhand, even when thrown blindly, can keep someone from closing in and grappling. Its not really fair to argue about the spinning kick by talking about the effectiveness of the spinning backhand, but the concepts involved are the same for the spinning kick. I think the 30 push up thing is kind of foolish. If you’re spun, or if you overcommitted to in inward attack, you may end up at positions where spinning attacks are a good option.

    I sometimes use a type of spinning kick where I lift the leg up like a high line hook kick, then chop down at 45 degree angle to the outside (or sometimes inside) of the lead leg.

    #47137
    anonymous
    Member

    I’m not a huge fan of spinning kicks myself. I wouldn’t advocate practicing them a lot, or even at all, in LV1 or 2. It makes sense trying to keep things simple.

    However, when you are punishing people for throwing the kick during sparring, you are instilling in them the idea that they have done something wrong. As CLFMak pointed out, it is possible that in a given situation the spinning kick may be the fastest attack (or counter) that it is possible to throw. If the opening is there and it’s the quickest attack, why not use it? The fact that some people are using the kick in sparring implies that they already know how to use it. Maybe they have learned it somewhere else, before they started taking KM lessons. If they have the skill to throw this kick and can recognize the right moment for using it, I wouldn’t punish them for it.

    Also, it gives the sparring partner a chance to learn to see and properly react to the kick, so it can be beneficial for that purpose.

    #47144
    psyops
    Member

    Well,

    Both of you bring up interesting points. Incidentally the spinning backfist is much easier to throw than any spinning kick. It is a highly effective weapon and I do like it very much!

    GK,

    Yes you are correct. Seeing these awkward attacks can be beneficial to the student. However we \”punis\” the student because often times the need for throwing the kick was caused by the studen improperly using another technique and the spin kick is a \”bail out\”. It has been my experience that spin kicks are rarely attempted in street fights. So not much time is given to them at all in our school!

    Good points though! I see where both of you are coming from

    #47150
    marine-mojo
    Member

    Psyops,

    You ever heard the one about the ground fighter expert who got his jaw handed to him in a bar fight because he wasnít a good strikerÖor how about the one about the striker king who got his arm broken because he slipped and fell and got into a ground fight (where a high % of fights go in the real world).

    Oh and before you throw your street credentials out, know that I have plenty of my own (not proud just a fact)

    I agree with like 99% of what you say, but to slight any part of training is just..wellÖasking for trouble. I understand and agree that if you go to the ground you are toast if there are multiple attackers, but what if you get into it with an attacker you canít get offÖthen what you gonna do. I am a big believer in KISS, but I got to believe that it makes sense to spend more time on the ground if for nothing else than to know what it feels like so a less experienced student type doesnít completely freak in the event it happens.

    I know not everyone has time to train enough to handle most violent encounters, much less cross train in multiple MAís; however, some familiarity with what happens when the buck doesnít work canít hurt.

    The whole spinning kick thingÖwell letís just say that anyone pulling that would probably end up with a right hook meeting them about æ of the way around (BTW the only time I would throw a right hook as a lead in any punch combination).

    Christian congrats on your personal accomplishment.
    ]
    Wow, 3 posts in one dayÖI am cooking now.

    #47153
    g-v
    Member
    #47157
    nancypants
    Member

    Re:

    quote \”Psyops\:

    often times the need for throwing the kick was caused by the studen improperly using another technique and the spin kick is a \”bail out\”.

    I’m not sure if I understand where you’re coming from with this argument – if I’m being attacked (or even if I’m sparring in class) and I do something improperly, why would I not want to do whatever I could to get back to a better position? I’m not necessarily trying to argue with you, because it’s very obvious that you have your (strong) opinions, I just don’t get the logic with this particular statement. If one of my students completely and totally screws up, I’d rather them do SOMETHING, even if it’s the \”wrong\” thing to get back into the fight. I’d be way more likely to \”punish\” them for giving up or doing nothing in that situation than for coming up with a way to recover.

    #47159
    psyops
    Member

    You are missing the point!

    If you are proficient at the basics you have the advantage because the bulk of the people you will encounter are not trained at all. I live in the MMA capital of the USA right now. I’m out all the time and I very ever see MMA or traditional MA practitioners getting into fights with other trained individuals. The old saying is \”Individuals who are trained to fight, usually don’t fight each other\”. This is true. Sometimes it happens but usually it does not.

    Am I generally dismissive of ground work? It depends. Again for basic self defense I feel that every technique should be done with the understanding that getting back to your feet ASAP is the most important thing. Triangle chokes, are very difficult without a ton of training. Teaching students that groundwork in class is the same as on the sidewalk is foolish. It is not the same and anyone who says different has obviously never had their face ground into the cement!

    Is ground work important in a self defense system? Sure. However we are not trying to create cage fighters at Krav Maga. There are plenty of other systems out there which do this. The Gracie system is highly effective BJJ. Krav Maga is Krav Maga.

    My \”street cred\” was not bragging. The point is that most of the hand to hand battles that I saw on the street and while in the ARMY never included a spinning kick, triangle choke, rear naked choke, arm bar or any other moves such as these. They are simple direct and that is how training should be. \”Punishing\” students is a bad term. We discourage anything that is not simplistic in nature. We discourage kicks above the shoulders as the kicker is more vunerable on the street. We have some higher level students who are quite adept at these moves and they are allowed to train to their ability. However I would tell you that in a street fight you want to stay simple because these things are what will keep you safe!

    #47161
    marine-mojo
    Member

    Psyops,

    I agree with most of what you said, not that it really matters.

    Anyway, when I was in the MARINES, well I donít know but you capitalized yoursÖ

    Have a safe Memorial Day weekendÖthanks for the service..

    #47162
    psyops
    Member

    You too Devil Dog!

    Happy Memorial Day. I also agree with your take. You have a point but remember level 1 and level 2 students just want the basics! Where were you stationed?

    #47163
    kravjeff
    Member

    Psyops and Marine_Mojo (and anyone else on this forum who has served).

    Thank you for your service! You have my envy (I wasn’t smart enough to enlist when I was young) my respect and my sincere gratitude!

    :mrgreen:

    #47164
    psyops
    Member

    LOL…

    Thanks!

    U.S.A.R.M.Y. reverse it for Y.R.A.S.U.

    Yes
    My
    Retarded
    Ass
    Signed
    Up

    Remember the soldiers in the sand this weekend. They are the ture warriors!

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Get Training!

EXPERIENCE KMW TODAY!

For more information call now at

800.572.8624

or fill out the form below: