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On another forum there was an interesting discussion about kick defenses against knife attacks, and I wanted to ask about it here as well, to maybe get some further expert opinion.
The question was about overhead knife attack and which defense to use when the attacker is charging in. I thought about the defense shown on page 248 of the KM book as probably the most appropriate one if he is coming in fast (basically defensive (or offensive) front kick to the midsection, with or without advance, depending on how much time you have to react).
However, the case was made that if he is coming in very fast, he may just have so much velocity that he will run me over and I might fall to the ground. Could happen, especially if he’s a much bigger guy.
So, would it be more prudent to step off angle and maybe give a groin kick as a counter (as shown on page 16/17 of Imi’s book)? I was wondering if that would take too much accuracy if he is coming in very fast (running across the room as fast as he can). Also, a groin kick may not completely stop his motion, even if it hurts him and the knife may come crashing down if he should double over in pain. The defensive front kick, however, is designed to stop the attacker and hurt him as well.
If the attacker is really big and I don’t want to take the chance of him running me over, could I just wait until he has almost reached me and then step to the side, maybe try the groin kick, or maybe even try to run into the opposite direction, hoping I’ll get away before he is able to change direction and come back after me (big risk to take, but maybe if he’s a lot bigger?). Or should I try the defensive/offensive front kick regardless of the attacker’s size?
How about if he approaches me more slowly, maybe accelerating toward me, but only for a few steps, so he doesn’t have time to build up full speed? In that case, is the groin kick better, or should I do the defensive/offensive front kick?
Another problem for me as a smaller person is that sometimes, if the attacker is very tall, I really have to lift my leg up high in order to reach with my defensive kick and it gives me a much less stable base (in other words I’ll be more likely to be run over if the attacker approaches at full speed).
So, are there any specific guidelines for kick defenses against knives that are addressing these issues?
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GiantkillerI would’nt recommend any kick against a knife attack in general, too much chance of getting a major artery cut.
Once controlling the knife hand, the legs could be used for tripping etc, but then you would be too close in to kick.Craig.
But what would you do if the attacker is charging at you, running really fast from maybe 20-30 feet away. Would he have too much velocity for you to do a hand defense? How would you defend in that situation?
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GiantkillerHi GK,
From the distance if you can, run the opposite way. If thats not possible, really its not that much different, the attacker still has to close the distance to stab, slash you, so I wouldn’t be kicking,
If the attacker comes in with that much force, ie, running, we would use a side step and take control from there.
Sorry but its really difficult ( for me anyway 😆 ) to explain in writing. but bottom line I won’t be using kicks.craig.
Well, that sounds interesting, especially if the attacker is a lot larger and a kick may be too dangerous to do. If you just step to the side without a counter, is there a chance he will simply run past you? Or maybe, as he intended to stab you at the very spot where you were standing before the side step, could it be that he goes for the stab but misses and kind of loses his balance (especially if it’s a downward stab), then you step back toward him and counter/control from there? Just trying to imagine it. 🙂
As for turning and running, could work if he is somewhat slow or very far away, but it’s risky. In most cases, you probably don’t have time to react until he is at least somewhat close. At that point, if you turn and run, he may catch up with you and you may end up like that lady in the autopsy pictures Darren showed once, with the neck full of stab wounds. 🙁
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GiantkillerThe ìbailî kick technique has always made me uncomfortable.
Iím more comfortable with step off angle left while left hand checks/redirects knife, strike with right hand or even right elbow if hes coming in fast. Then right hand does cavalier on knife hand, left hand then plucks his elbow drives knife back in at him.
Alternatively ñ left hand checks to right hand wrist grab left hand then goes to his elbow for control point.. his inertia will carry him forward a few feet or if done properly he will circle because your pushing on his elbow. Now admittedly this is a timing thing that carries a high risk factor. But your torso is out of the way and you have at least one hand on the weapon arm and are on his deadside.
Disclaimer – This is a personal preference and not an ìauthorizedî KM technique. Its highly possible that because I suck at this particular KM technique I go with what I know. I’m just not a fan of trying to kick someone whos got a knife.
Opinions welcome 8)
There is a primary issue not yet discussed: recognition.
IMHO, you cannot start by asking what you would do if someone came at you with a knife, because you will most likely not see the knife. You have to begin by asking: if someone is some distance away, and starts to come toward me, what would I do first?
In this case, most of us would kick — either a defensive stop kick or an offensive, penetrating kick. That’s the kick we opt for as our knife defense.
You can mail a \”bail out\” round kick if you see the knife…and yes, you CAN do it also against a downward stab as well as a straight stab.
We used to teach three kick variations against various knife attacks. They are all logical…but they don’t acknowledge the basic issue that I may not see the knife at all. So we simplified it to what we would do if we didn’t know there was a knife…and then added emphasis on extending the hip to keep the knife farther away (if we know it’s there).
Regarding the issue of getting your femoral artery (in the leg) cut: I agree it’s a concern, but your choice is either to attack him before he arrives close enough to stab you or attack him before he gets there, when he may not be expecting to stab yet.
That’s a good point but if I ask myself \”if someone is some distance away, and starts to come toward me, what would I do first?\”, for me, the answer isn’t necessarily the same in every case. If I imagine a person roughly my own size, smaller, or slightly bigger, I think I would probably opt for a kick. However, if the person running toward me happens to be twice, or, in some really unfortunate cases, even three times my size, it would be sort of like being in the path of an oncoming train and my natural reaction would probably be to dodge it, not to try and stop it. A sidestep in that situation might be the most natural (and prudent) thing for me to do.
Then the question would be: Should I try and kick while bailing out (whether or not he has a knife)? Should I turn back in toward him afterwards and try to hit him and control that huge arm? Or should I just run?
Also, if I do opt for a straight kick, would it be better to aim for the midsection or for the groin area (as shown in Imi’s book). The groin area may be easier to miss and I’m not sure it would stop him completely.
If you kicked toward the midsection, would a defensive front kick or an offensive one be generally deemed more effective? The offensive one might hurt the attacker more, but it might double him over, bringing the knife down. The defensive one might keep him farther away.
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GiantkillerI think everyone has their own ideas about this defense, it depends on your training background, but I also teach Kickboxing ( 2nd Dan ) and I’m definately not kicking a knife attacker.
I’m also a Blue belt BJJ ( Royce Gracie ) but I wouldn’t try to take a knife attacker to the ground.
I would be looking to control the knife hand, then do what I needed to do in the situation as it arose.Everyone has their own opinions, and it wouldn’t be good for everyone to agree all the time.
At the end of the day if you survive a knife attack by kicking then good job you survived, and thats ths main thing.
Craig.
I just remembered something I saw in the final fight of the Human Weapon \”Krav Maga\” episode. One attacker was running in with a straight stab (I believe) and Jason redirected the knife, but then clothelined the attacker’s head as in bayonet defense (p333 of KM book) and somehow took him to the ground. Seemed like the attacker’s motion coming forward and his head being pushed back at the same time got him off balance and caused him to fall. Not sure how useful a defense this would be, it just entered my mind, because it was on the KM episode. It wasn’t really KM though, maybe another Israeli system, or maybe just Jason’s natural reaction in that situation.
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GiantkillerI’m not sure, either. Would have to watch that part again. But it wasn’t a throw (as in bayonet), more like a trip. I think the idea was the attacker is coming forward and his head is driven back, so his legs continue to go forward, but his head/upperbody stops or is moved into the opposing direction, which makes him fall on his behind. Then foot stomps or the like from there. Not sure it would work against a 7 foot, 300 pound gorilla, though, I might not even be able to reach his head or wrap my arm around his neck for the \”clothesline\”.
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GiantkillerCheck out the knife defense used by a female against a male attacker at http://www.krav-maga.com
This is one of several defenses/counter attacks shown in the slide show on the home page.
Looks like she is using a right leg side kick to defend against the attacker who has a knife in his right hand.
What do you think about that ?
RPM
Rocky Mountain Krav MagaLooks good, but it appears that she was standing sideways to begin with. If not, just giving a front quick might have been quicker.
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GiantkillerI’ve seen the side kick against an ice pick knife attack demonstrated in Taekwondo, some years ago. It seemed to be pretty affective and the defender was lightning fast with the kick. What worries me about it is, what if the attacker falls forward some, his attacking arm still in motion, the defender could get stabbed in the leg.
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