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Does Krav Maga utilize many joint locks such as the types found in Jujitsu and Aikido? Many of them, such as various wrist locks seem pretty effective and advantageous for those of us who need to rely on leverage and technique over brute strength.
JonathanRe: Krav Maga and joint locks
It will be interesting to hear where this thread goes. As someone who needs work on his ground game (or joint lock game) I am still a little mystified by such moves and wonder if they are indeed all that advantageous for someone who does not pack all that much power. It seems so easy to be a little to high or low in a joint lock thus negating its effectiveness.
Where as with a punch can stroke you anywhere from the eyes to the throat and it will still hurt like a *%$#!
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
Just to add to this question ,and it might be premature from my experience in Krav so far, but other than tourney or practice, wouldn’t it be more prudent in a defense situation to strike/escape/get away instead of locking them up? I mean I can understand immobilizing a bit but if I am defending myself I want to get away from the situation and to safety as quickly as possible.
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
Jonathan,
I trained in aikido for a while and found it helps my krav maga. The principles of centeredness, extension, etc. really help when applying cavaliers and other soft techniques in KM, as well as some elbow locks and throws. Some KM techniques appear very similar to aikido. But because KM tends to focus on immediate counterstrikes, joint locks are secondary techniques when/if applicable. Mostly they come into play in knife/gun techniques.
I noticed in another post you said you would be training at KMOC. One of the instructors there, Yuri, has some background in aikido and it shows in some of things he teaches. However, he doesn’t confuse the two styles. He always prefers “softening” up the attacker prior to doing joint locks.
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
In Krav maga, we want to get back up as soon as possible. To me, this is the best scenario since out in the street, you do not control your surrounding. while your on the ground putting a lock on someone, his buddy can easily come up and socer kick you accross your head…
with that said, Krav maga does have arm bars and chokes in the system. Most of the ground stuff are basic common type of submissions like stright arm bar, triangle, etc. Remember that Krav maga was developed and created for the common men or women. There are fantastic locks and chokes that are in BJJ and other systems but most of it takes years to develope and it is too intricate for the average person to learn quick and retain.
James
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
The regular KM techniques don’t have too many joint locks. We use cavaliers for knife takeaways. Also, police officers may be shown optional joint locks to detain a suspect, but those have less applications for civilians.
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GiantkillerRe: Krav Maga and joint locks
While I agree that in most street scenerios you want to end the fight as quickly as possible and get out of dodge, sometimes that is not possible or even the intended goal (especialy in a military or law enforcement scenerio).
Case in point: Last time I was in Iraq, we came upon a vehicle that was cruising around on the day of the election for the Constitutional Referendum (that’s a big no-no). When we got them out of the vehicle and searched it, we found a variety of loaded pistols and assault rifles on the seats. We immediately gave our go-code to have our EPW search team put everyone on the ground, which they promptly did. Or shall I say attempted to do. One of the Iraqis grabbed the squad leader from the EPW search element’s weapon and was wrestling him to the ground. We hit this guy 4 times over the head with the butt of an
M-9 pistol and continued to pound on him with our fists, but he was still putting up one hell of a fight. If we hadn’t been proficient in joint maniuplation (thanks BJJ), we would have tired before he did and we would have had to use deadly force. It turned out that the guy was a son of a prodominent Sheik and the fact that we “spared his life” bought us a lot of respect in our area of operations.Bottom line… Joint maniuplation isn’t appropriate for every situation. I would much rather throw some very painful blows so that my opponent doesn’t even think about thinking about doing some low-down hoodlum shit ever again. However, they are great for when you are up against someone that you can’t otherwise out-fight or that you need to aprehend.
J-
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
Thanks for the responses guys, it makes sense now why Krav Maga does not teach joint locks. Am I correct in assuming that Krav is simply about executing a pluthera of explosive strikes to stun and maime the bad guy rather than subdue him?
Downforlife76, one thousand thank you’s for fighting for our country.
JonathanRe: Krav Maga and joint locks
I had the same question and was a little disappointed at first when I found out that KM doesn’t do a whole lot of joint lock stuff but then the “reality” of the ground game was pointed out to me.
If you’re on the ground:
1- As someone above mentioned… You’re SOL if the other dude has a friend who wants to play soccer with your head.
2- Your head is too close to the ground. This means that even a poorly thrown punch or elbow might have double impact when it knocks your head back into the pavement. If you have ever seen the result of a major impact to the back of the head, it isn’t pretty. The body’s reactions include vomiting, loss of vision and an instinctive curl up into the fetal position. It is MUCH worse than a concussion to the frontal lobe.
3- Unless you happen to get taken down on a beach, wrestling mat, or a grassy golf course, you’re going to be rolling around in gravel, broken glass, and whatever else is down there. Maybe police officers or soldiers in uniform with vests, long sleeves, and other gear are ok with that but, having been dragged across broken glass in a t shirt (flag football gone wrong) I can tell you it is a painful experience. I think I’d rather be stabbed, the cuts would only be a little deeper and at least the infection wouldn’t be nearly as dangerous.
I’m all about the KM philosophy of getting up asap. Screw that BJJ noise.
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
quote Jonathan:Thanks for the responses guys, it makes sense now why Krav Maga does not teach joint locks. Am I correct in assuming that Krav is simply about executing a pluthera of explosive strikes to stun and maime the bad guy rather than subdue him?
Downforlife76, one thousand thank you’s for fighting for our country.
Jonathanyou do what ever is necessary to go home safe to your family.
James
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
quote Jonathan:Am I correct in assuming that Krav is simply about executing a pluthera of explosive strikes to stun and maime the bad guy rather than subdue him?
JonathanThe essence of Krav Maga can be understood by defining some of its principles:
ï Techniques should be movements based on natural instincts.
ï Techniques must address the immediate danger.
ï Techniques must defend and counterattack simultaneously.
ï One defense must work against a variety of attacks.
ï The system should be integrated so that movements learned in one area of the system complement, rather than contradict, movements in another area.
ï Techniques must be accessible to the average person, not just athletes.
ï Techniques must work from a position of disadvantage.
ï Training must include the stress experienced in real attacks.Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
Joint locks do have their place, it just depends on the situation. I come from a Yoshinkan Aikido and Jujutsu background and the key to using joints locks depends on 2 things:
– Off balancing
– Stikes (Atemi)In order to execte those joint locks you need to soften them up a bit (or a lot) or time the attack just right where you blend with their attack. Easier said than done, but not impossible. I have done several krav techniques where a joint lock or arm bar/arm lock could have been executed. There good to know (whether standing or on the ground) but I see them being used more by police/military personal vs. civilians…unless you are trying to detain your drunk friend from driving the car 😉
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
quote DirtyHippieUte:I’m all about the KM philosophy of getting up asap. Screw that BJJ noise.And as for Akido, joint locks are mostly applied from trapping range, not grappling range. They would follow most of the “Krav Maga” principals of simultaneous defense and offense, thrown from a disadvantage position, and work against a variety of attacks but!:
Most are not natural and therefore
Most are difficult to master, and very difficult to use in a real combat situation without years of trainingRe: Krav Maga and joint locks
quote jjk:Most are not natural and therefore
Most are difficult to master, and very difficult to use in a real combat situation without years of trainingYou correct to a point. It depends on the style of aikido as well. Yoshinkan aikido is a bit different from Aikikai aikido in the fact that it more closely resembles the art of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and is focused more on the practical application of techniques in a self defense situation versus other aikido systems. The techniques are very basic, too the point and are quite painful. Also, Yoshinkan uses a very liberal amount of strikes. As a matter of fact, the founder stated that in real combat situation, 70% of the fight should include atemis. I do believe he was under the belief that most of the techniques that you would use in the dojo, would not work as well if you didn’t use a strike of some sort (elbows, back fist, low kicks, etc.)
However, too your point my friend, it does take time to master (which makes the journey in that art very interesting) 🙂
Re: Krav Maga and joint locks
Joint locks are usually only the beginning of the true technique: Joint Break. The wrist Cavaliers that are in Krav could be used to break the wrist. I don’t like to tell anyone defending themselves to become ‘attached’ to the attacker by grabbing a wrist or arm, accept in rare cases like imobilizing a knife weilding arm or grabbing for knees.
Otherwise if you are going to wrist lock someone and it’s justified; Break it and Wiggle it!
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