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Knees and kicks are different tools, used in different ranges, often times to different targets, with different delivery systems and different pros and cons. Hick’s Law doesn’t say do everything the same, though one can conclude from it that reduced options equals reduced reaction time. That said, a kick is not the same as a knee, just like a punch is not the same as an elbow.
A knee to the thigh won’t end a fight–it may be a good tool for opening up something else or for mixing levels of attacks, but it isn’t going to stop anyone.
I have a quick question for clarification. is this a fight or a self-defense situation? I was reading thread and wasn’t sure what the situation was.
Point taken Ryan. I will only add that if you do jam their stance, then you are now in Knee range, and many kickers believe they can turn a kick into a knee strike. and if they are close enough to shin you on the thigh, they are only a few inches from knee range.
So for me, in the case of someone lifting their leg, I do not know if it is a kick or knee yet, so my answer must start out they same (provided they are in range, or close too it).
MrApollinax., I think it started out as a question about training methods and how they are applied in a real fight. I think both KM and WT only train for real life self defense, not sport, so self D. is the only type of fight we do. Police and Military training has a few different senerios but you get my drift.
8)
Yes, I was asking about a street fight, not a sport fight. I assume it would be self-defense, since I don’t plan to go out there challenging people or looking for trouble! 😆
So, it could happen anywhere, some guy attacks you, he might try to kick, or maybe a few punches are thrown, you are able to defend, and then he tries to hit you with a low round kick. You see it and so the question is, how do you defend? Lifting the leg, absorbing or jumping back (so he’ll miss)?
Cali,
So, do you think you would not be able to absorb a knee to the thigh? Would a knee be that much more powerful than a kick with the shin? Would you always suggest to do the checking defense in a street fight, rather than absorbing or jumping back?
I can see Hick’s law making sense, you don’t want to have to think too much, but it would also make sense that for a street fighting system you would teach and practice the technique that would be most applicable in a street fight and I’m just not sure the checking defense would be it. Could be that I’m just not doing it correctly, though. But I’m wondering if it could happen that I’m attacked this way, recognize the attack, but then I’m hesitating, unsure of whether or not I can actually defend this way, without protections such as shin guards. That hesitation might cause me to be too late in my defense and get hit or do it incorrectly and get hurt because of the shin against shin contact.
A knee can hurt the thigh pretty bad, but thats not my main point. If someone lifts their foot, how do you know what they are doing, kick, knee, sweep, funny pose,…
If I understand what you are talking about as KM defenses, you have a jamming stance called crashing, and you have some hard blocks like Muy Thai or any other traditional art. I just wanted to point out the next level of defense, redirecting the energy of the attack.
Hicks law, as I understand it from this forum, means by limiting your decisions you increase your speed in reacting. So the best answer would be to have a single reaction. This is the whole goal of the centerline theory in Wing Chun/WT et al. The one descion is, \”Am I being Attacked?\” if yes you go forward with thrust punch and thrust kick. We have what we call Entering step that allows us to kick and move forward.
So for a kick or knee or any leg related attack, we thrust kick. If they are so fast that they get close enough to knee us, our kick becomes a knee strike due to the presure. But it always starts as a thrust kick.
In many situations the fight continues. So now due to the nature of the brawl, you may find yourself unable to move forward but still dealing with exchanging blows. In this type of situation you may have to \”block\” a kick with a \”block\”. WT never blocks low kicks with the hands so we would again try to kick away their kick. This is when the dreaded shin on shin contact may happen. As I discribed above, WT has only 1 of 6 ways our kick can meet theirs that results in the shin on shin. It is not ever done on purpose as a block like in Muy Thai. Then, there are three other deformations of the leg that prevent the painful shin bone dent. In a photo it looks like Muy Thai, at least the leg shapes, but it is how we get there that is different.
As I understand the question, you are refering to useing the shin, or ankle area, or thigh, to block a recognized kick coming at you? This is just blocking and the stronger person will always win this. Weaker people can not relie on this. Jamming is much better.
Jamming alone is also used in WT. If they are close enough at the start, just jam them and punch, as mentioned earlier in thread. When jamming, the leg wedges into their stance and in effect is a very, very low kick 😀 The forward motion and the wedge effect redirct the energy of their attack. So if you can move in the shin on shin is rare, and if it occurs, it is not two forces in opposition. It is a wedge vs. a straight attack. It may hurt alittle. If you meet their shin with your own as a block,…. 😳 that is straight force against force, something is gonna break.
Si-fu Emin has some good video of this stuff through CFW.
http://www.cfwenterprises.com/product.asp?s=cfw&pf_id=BOZ02&dept_id=2528)
So, you are basically just trying to beat him to the punch (or the kick) by kicking him first with a thrust kick? Would that thrust kick be directed at his chest or at his leg? What if you are late (maybe you don’t recognize the attack right away)? Would you block then?
I guess it’s just a totally different system and kind of hard to describe over the internet. How long do you think it would take to learn those defenses and be somewhat confident using them in a street fight? Six different ways to defend sounds like a lot of options. Maybe too many? No offense, I really have no idea, I have never studied WT. Maybe I should read a book about it, a book with lots of pictures! 😉
In KM we basically just have the three defenses I described, \”Muay Thai\” checking defense (the one we practice most often, although mostly with shin guards on), the absorbing defense and jumping back. Occasionally we talk about a stop kick, but it seems you would have to be very accurate to pull that one off and how accurate would you be under stress? But I guess it might just be a matter of practice.
yup, it is hard to discribe…. 😀
If your first, you can kick, punch or jam them
If you are a little late, your kick, punch or jam will run into their attackSo we don’t have six defenses, we have six possible ways our kick will meet their leg attack. Our kick defense is to do thrust kick at the groin or upper thigh. If you need more balance then it can be at knee or lower leg (beginners).
Our leg comes from the ground up the middle, and we stand with out feet square, so the 6 possible kicks they use are the right leg to kick our right leg, middle, or left leg or they use the left leg to kick our left leg, middle, or right leg. If I defend with my left leg coming over to middle and up, the leg moves along an arc. Only the kick from their left leg toward my center may result in the shin on shin directly. The rest result in my leg inside or out side and wedging the kick away as it controls the middle. Sometime the other kicks from the left leg may have shin on shin, but not often.
The leg is bent untell the top of its apex, and then it strightens out as a thrust kick using the heel. So the circling in wedges then the thrust comes in to their standing leg.
If they are farther away you have range(=time) to do stop kicks.Really this just means i had time to get my leg all the way up and target something. Some styles choice is to block in this situation, we kick.
If they are closer, faster, and/or have a very well directed kick that is not wedged away, then these 6 contact points feel pressure, and the leg has to \”push\” the kick away by changing shape. There are three of these. We call them deformations or re-directions. This would be where other styles Block.
You learn these in EBMAS over about 9 months. First you learn it as a punch against punch, that wedges or deforms into tan or pak. That is the concept. and you have to learn to step with kick. Then you learn the feel of the contact via the jamming stances and reaching out with a leg. This starts with lat sau sparring. This is basic begginer self defense, 3 to 4 months. Then we add in these leg redirection moves and the elbows, anti grappling, anti ground fighting,…..At about 6 months you can have everything but you gatta practice it.
The Knee defense is the same, but really short and so with upper thigh and knee instead of with lower leg and kick, and then if you are down and they are kicking you, the legs are also used in the same way. This is what we mean by system, that the core concept is always the same and the core movements are used in all situations.
Okay, I’m starting to picture it a little bit. 😉
So, you are not in a fighting stance when you are doing this, but both legs next to each other? You are basically lifting your leg and try to kick his thigh and that way you either hit him first or defend his kick along the way and hit him then? What if the attack came from the side would you still be able to defend this way? What are your follow up attacks? Do you do something similar for front kicks, side kicks and higher kicks? What about punches? And what’s \”anti ground fighting?\”.
This sounds like a very whole, complete system. Do you think it would be possible to use these leg defenses, even if you primarily study another system (such as Krav Maga) or would you need to train exclusively in WT to \”get it\”? 🙄
Yes my example starts from just standing, which is what we all are doing when a fight starts. and it is always a question of timing and distance. If they are five to ten feet away and their body language gives away the type of kick, you can do many things, but if they are in your space, or at the critical distance line, if the even flinch, you must react and you can not have time to decide what type of kick it is.
Once the fight is on, or if you prepare for a threat, then you may be in fighting stance, one leg in front of the other. We set our weight 100% on the back leg and lift the front leg up and kick. So then it is allready in the middle, and its shape makes the wedge, so in this position you really are dealling with four possible kicks, from the right or left, and a straight that ends up on right or left side of our leg. A fifth possiblity is if they met and stick with you in the center.
Same three basic answers here, wedge, or bend to right or bend to left. If they have a wide hooking kick, we just kick their standing leg. We only need to defend thight kicks which protect their standing leg. Their are several from Savate and Muy Thai that are very powerful and very thight. These require much practice against to catch and absorb. Think of when you learned to catch a football, especially a punt. You must reach out to catch it, then pull it into you body to slow the impact. if you just catch it by letting it hit your chest and then pull your arms around it, it really hurts! Just an Analogy for example.
Follow up attacks are based on forwrd spring energy. This is The hard part to master. It is a forward pressure that springs forward when freed. So if our kick get’s bent into a deformation, it is still pushing against their leg. when the angles alow it to snap free, it does, as a kick at the standing leg. If it cann’t and their presure continuestoward the center, it turns us. In some cases the legs are pressing together and \”stuck\”, so we just direct this down to the ground, i.e. a jam. Under certain conditions this kick leg becomes our standing leg and the standing leg becomes a kick! This move is rare but it is so cool! You have stolen their balance and have their leg pinned as you kick them in the back of the knee.
We are also contantly punching up top as our kicks are independnt of the arms. We train so that the torso learns to balance itself, without the arms sticking out. So some times the follow up is just more punches.
Alot of time we just jam and stick with knee and leg pressure. They never get a kick off as it is \”Crashed\”. If they want to kick they gotta step back again, and we crash again….KM does this too I think. This is great because it keeps both our feet close to the ground for mobility.
and we are kicking the groin or inside of thigh, just to be clear.
I think any forward aggresive style can use this type of leg work. But it requires a theory understanding and a training system to impart the reactions in the leg. You also need to be using straight line attacks with hands and legs in a co-ordinated manner. In WT we teach the theory from the punch to punch first, using just footwork. It is harder to learn the theory as a kick because you need to stand on one leg and learn it all while balancing. So if you went to WT school to learn this it might take awhile.
For kicks up to waist high this works very well. For higher kicks their standing leg is completly vulnerable. Also, our punches are protecting our upper body. We also have a \”scissors\” move using both arms that covers from the top of head down to waist, on one side, just in case, then we scoop up the kick and throw them.
\”anti ground fighting\” is our way at looking at the battle on the ground. We do not play their game but try to beat it. Ground fighting today is mostly wrestling and BJJ. If we tried to do that, we would not have a chance as they spend all their time going for locks and chokes and takedowns in training. We train punching and kicking and footwork. Our perspective is \”Anti-\” to this ground fig
too long..HeHeHe
\”anti ground fighting\” is our way at looking at the battle on the ground. We do not play their game but try to beat it. Ground fighting today is mostly wrestling and BJJ. If we tried to do that, we would not have a chance as they spend all their time going for locks and chokes and takedowns in training. We train punching and kicking and footwork. Our perspective is \”Anti-\” to this ground fighting….Counters to takedowns, throws, and the clinch is Anti-Grappling and punching, kicking , elbowing, escapes, and returning to standing or side mount is Anti-Ground Fighting. Basically we never bother to try and do joint locks, only escape them and return to punching. But that is another thread… 😀 But if I falldown and they are standing, i use these same kicks and kick counters to keep them away, kick out their legs, absorb their kicks, and if they get into my open guard, i still kick….so ofcoarse i need to practice alot of counters to ankle and leg locks… 😉
For me, and one reason I come to this forum, I think KM could benifit from WT theory. Both go forward and attack, attack, attack…Both are based on Hicks Law, although we just call it economy of motion and the reaction time paradox. Both were started by a Military fighting an Insurgancy…It is just that WT has been doing it since 1773. Wing Tzun (or Wing Tsun) do require a commitment to training because the system itself has reflexs built in, and if you learn a non-compatible set of reflexs at the same time, you cancel out your hard work. But I think KM should be compatible.
At a certain higher level in WT we go out and learn another Style. We bring this back to practice against. I plan to do KM at this point. We incorperate what is compatible and practice against the rest.
8)Dude, I grew up in Europe, I’ve never caught a football!!!! 😆 🙁 😯 😳
But I know what you mean. I guess it’s like in volleyball (we played that) when you try and hit the ball with your forearms. If you you do it the wrong way it kind of smashes into your arms, really hurting you and getting them all red. Damn, I hated that game!! 🙁
I guess this is the same thing you are supposed to do with the checking (Muay Thai) defense, not really going shin against shin, but bending the lower leg back as the kick comes in and thus more re-directing it then blocking it. If you learn how to do it just right the shin against shin contact probably isn’t so bad. It’s when you screw it up that the damge occurs!
Those WT defenses sound very interesting, but probably impossible to learn just by a description over the internet. 🙁
Yes, in Krav Maga we also try to always go forward and give lots of counters. We do \”Anti grappling\”, too, we don’t want to go to the ground if it can be avoided and get back up quickly if we do end up there. Although, personally, I think we could do ground work a little more, just in case we need it. They offer ground fighting classes at the NTC, though, and I really like them.
How long have you been studying WT? I think it would be interesting if you learned some Krav Maga, you could tell us what you think from your perspective.
Do they do weapons defenses in WT? Don’t want to brag, but we got a hand granade defense… 😆
Hand Granade Defense? You mean jump on it to save the troop!!…. 😀
WT assumes all punches have a blade, since it is the blade you don’t see that kills you. So that is incorperated into it, thus again limiting your decisions and shortening your reaction time. We also have specific stuff if you see the knife, and for body guards, police, Counter terrorist units(mostly from the days when they were just hijackers 😥 ).
Yes, we all wish we could train the ground more, and against kicks, and tackles, and guns, and knives,…..There is so much and so little time. This is helped by haveing a systematic way to react and to train. In the kicks above, they are used in every program, so they improve every program when you practice. If you have different moves at each of the five distances you are dividing your training by 5. Then if you have more different stuff for guns and knives, setting up locks on the ground…you end up limited in the end.
I also teach Latosa Escrima Weapons System for EBMAS. WT and Latosa combine really nicely and offer alot of options. I think KM is much more like Escrima than WT, so that is why I think KM/WT could be compatible.
I have been studying WT since 1994, and before that I did Aikido, Karate, and Tai Chi. I also wanted to be a mercenary when I was a kid so I grew up playing Paint ball and reading Solider of Fortune and Gung Ho magazines, going to Gun Shows, and all that stuff. I got over the Merc. crap when I was about 16, and went to college instead. I will be testing for my first Technitian Level this month in WT.
The hand granade defense is basically a hostage situation, where there is one crazy guy with a live granade, threatening to blow everyone up (including himself) if his demands aren’t met. You jump in and save the day by grabbing the hand that’s holding the granade, do a cavalier that drops him, stomp on his head (presumably killing him that way), push the granade underneath his body and dive to the ground head first, as far away from him as possible, and cover your head as the granade explodes. I don’t know if anyone has actually ever done this for real, but I guess if the guy is about to drop the granade, it’s worth a try……:wink:
In Krav Maga we also assume that the opponent might have a weapon, even if you don’t see it, so the block for a knife and hook punch are essentially the same. Sounds like there are a lot of similar principles in Krav Maga and WT. I’m sure you’d like it once you tried it out, especially also the gun/rifle defenses etc, if you don’t do as many of those in your system. It would be interesting to see how you think both systems compare once you’ve tried them both.
Reminded me of a Darwin Award a few years back…Guy has gun, grenade, and attack dog. Throws grenade at police,…dog fetchs grenade and returns it to bad guy.BOOM Good Dog 😀 ❗
It will be a few years but I can still share alot on the internet….. 😉
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