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food for thought/discussion
same video on liveleak and youtube
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=319_1380522846
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNOyDMzn2bY&feature=player_embedded
a few of many articles/news stories about the incident
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/01/nypd-suspects-sought-in-attack-on-suv-driver/
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
quote CJs Dad:How exactly was planning to out run the bikes?I don’t know if he even got that far in his thought processes. I bring this topic up because although this kind of thing doesn’t happen very often, it did for this driver and his family. Unfortunately road rage happens, and you apologizing and trying to avoid confrontation doesn’t always work.
A forum member might find themselves in a similar type of situation – maybe with or without family members in your car, maybe with less motorcycles, maybe with cars, maybe with more than one car, maybe with one car but with a bunch of idiots in that car, maybe while you’re armed or maybe not, maybe with cell phone service maybe not, maybe you’re in an area you know well or maybe not, ETC.
What would be your concerns/fears? What might some of your options be? If you were that driver in the incident, what would you have done? Do you feel his actions were justified? Why or why not? Or what Would have justified his actions in your opinion? What else could he have done? What about at the end of the incident (where the person recording the video so conveniently edited out what happened next before posting online)?
For those of you who aren’t familiar with scenario training or What If/mental preparation, this is what we do to work/deal with OODA. All else being equal, when faced with something unforeseen, unexpected, or foreign, it takes significantly longer to get from observing to acting.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
Let’s assume that the bikers were the original provocateurs…in other words, no mad-dogging or middle finger, etc. from the driver. If I were that driver, I would’ve gradually slowed down so that the bikers would pass me up. If it were possible, I would even slow to a stop and pull over. At that point, if they stopped and attacked my car, then it’s time to call 911 and do whatever it took to protect myself and my family. The point here is that we’re talking one unarmed guy vs. a mob…and it’s easy to guess who’s gonna win that fight. Antagonizing the bikers and giving them an excuse to attack is NOT the best course of action, no matter how righteously angry you are.
Interestingly enough, a couple of weeks ago I had some a-hole(s?) in a car chase my car for about 15 minutes on surface streets before I got on the freeway and they gave up the chase. I’m still not sure why they chased me, although I may have accidentally cut them off when leaving a parking lot. Was I scared? Yes. I had no idea how many people were in the car or if they were armed, etc.
Thanks to my KM training, my overriding thought was not to pull over and fight, but to simply GET AWAY. Fortunately, I knew the area well and was able to access the freeway. If they had followed, my plan was to call 911 and head for the nearest police station.
I’ll be interested to learn more details about the NY incident as they’re revealed.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
quote Magpie:Let’s assume that the bikers were the original provocateurs…in other words, no mad-dogging or middle finger, etc. from the driver.None of that justifies someone taking it to the next level – confrontation, blocking free movement, physical contact, etc (and vice versa if someone does that to you – you in general).
If I were that driver, I would’ve gradually slowed down so that the bikers would pass me up. If it were possible, I would even slow to a stop and pull over.
Good idea. Hopefully, they’ll keep on going and you won’t see them again for the rest of your drive. Worst case though, is that it gives them an opportunity to form up around/surround you. In this incident, one biker slowed and suddenly stopped in front of the SUV, causing a minor collision and causing the SUV driver to stop in the middle of the road.
At that point, if they stopped and attacked my car, then it’s time to call 911 and do whatever it took to protect myself and my family.
What would be the threat(s) you’d be perceiving? Would you call 911 first and then take action or take action first and then call 911? What kinds of actions does “whatever it took” include?
The point here is that we’re talking one unarmed guy vs. a mob…and it’s easy to guess who’s gonna win that fight.
Why do you believe he was “unarmed”? Even if he didn’t have a firearm or knife or other dedicated weapon with him, are you sure he was “unarmed”? 😉
Antagonizing the bikers and giving them an excuse to attack is NOT the best course of action, no matter how righteously angry you are.
Yes, avoiding confrontation is usually the best option. Let’s say, however, you did NOT do anything to antagonize/instigate…
Interestingly enough, a couple of weeks ago I had some a-hole(s?) in a car chase my car for about 15 minutes on surface streets before I got on the freeway and they gave up the chase. I’m still not sure why they chased me, although I may have accidentally cut them off when leaving a parking lot. Was I scared? Yes. I had no idea how many people were in the car or if they were armed, etc.
Thanks to my KM training, my overriding thought was not to pull over and fight, but to simply GET AWAY. Fortunately, I knew the area well and was able to access the freeway. If they had followed, my plan was to call 911 and head for the nearest police station.
Just curious, why didn’t you call 911 while you were trying to get away? 15 minutes is a LONG time. If you felt they were a threat, I would recommend calling for resources and heading towards safety much sooner than that. What might you do differently (or in preparation) if such an incident happens again?
I’ll be interested to learn more details about the NY incident as they’re revealed.
Did you read some of the articles? Especially about what happened at the end?
IMO, it seemed like the driver was in a state of panic and/or shock. It didn’t look like he had a plan of action, much less a plan B or C, and was not sure of what he could have done. He basically allowed what happened at the end to happen – he is REALLY lucky that the thugs only harmed him and not his wife and kid… I’m not faulting him for what happened – only pointing out that he could have done more/other things.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
Btw, not picking on you – just trying to get the creative juices flowing, thinking ahead, thinking outside the box, debriefing and preplanning, etc…
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
No worries. Yes, I could’ve called 911 right away, and would have if I’d seen a weapon in the other car or if the driver had tried to hit me or cut me off, etc. I admit that I was hoping that the other driver was not stupid or angry enough to start any ****, hence my response of just trying to get away. And perhaps “15 minutes” was an exaggeration…it SEEMED like 15 minutes, but may have been less than that.
As for the NY incident, what would YOU have done if you were in the SUV and the bikers started swarming you for no good reason?
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
This is going to sound like a cop-out but I would like to see if anyone else is interested in joining in the discussion first. I know what I would have been comfortable doing but what I might choose to do might not be agreeable or practical for you or someone else.
I know I would have tried to call 911 (I don’t remember if any of the articles mentioned whether anyone in the SUV tried to call or not) but more likely, I would have called one or two different LE numbers first because, in the past, I’ve had trouble immediately getting through to someone via 911. For a long time, 911 around here was routed through CHP operators and if other people were calling 911 (regarding the same incident or something different) it was a b1tch to get through – I remember being on hold for 20 minutes or more on occasion. Also, they didn’t know where you were so your knowing your location (ideally at all times) was critical.
These days, if you don’t know where you are, they Might be able to get a general location via cell phone towers or through phone GPS. Some areas are now routing 911 calls to the closest police station instead of CHP but I don’t know if that’s been switched over everywhere or which specific areas have been upgraded. (If you get through to CHP, they still have to transfer the call to the closest agency or station, assuming you know or they can tell where you are). When you call 911 from a land-line, the call automatically gets routed to the closest agency/station and your location automatically pops up on the screen (on rare occasion, errors in the database do pop up though).
SO, if you know the local agencies where you normally travel/hang out, sometimes it may be quicker to call them directly. AND, while calling for 911 usually shows that you were asking for help rather than instigating or escalating the situation, it Does take time for help to get to you. I would not call 911 if that action would put me in a more disadvantageous position or I would lose some kind of tactical advantage – I might have to create a better time or opportunity to call 911 (or whatever number). In other words, I might choose to deal with a threat first and then call 911 at the earliest safe(r) opportunity later.
In the meantime, if you’re still willing to “play”, let’s say you were 100% Not at fault and were being “swarmed” by that group of bikers. What do you mean by “swarming”? What were they doing specifically and what did that signify or mean to you? How many of them were there, how close were they, what else were they saying or doing, etc?
What I’m doing is getting you to be more descriptive and articulate in explaining what was happening and why you did whatever you eventually did. This is just like articulating and documenting LE uses of force. If/when the issue goes to court, none of the people there will have been at your incident/in your exact situation – including the officers taking the initial report. At that point, your job is to convey exactly what it was like to have been in your shoes through that situation – clear enough so that those people who weren’t there will feel as if they were right there with you. If you use “swarming” by itself, people reading or hearing that word may or may not picture exactly what it is that you’re trying to describe.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
seems like a bad scenario no matter how you look at it. I think calling emergency assistance should have happened at swarming but the likelihood of anything reaching you before things go south seems a little slim.
Just glad it didn’t happen to me, not sure how I would react.
Good food for thought Don.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
Yes, I’d love to hear input from other members…this was definitely one of those sloppy, f-d up scenarios that they don’t cover in classes. I’m glad it wasn’t me, either.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
He did call 911 right away. The only thing that stood out to me was someone yanked his door open in the first confrontation. It should have been locked. But he got it closed and apparently locked it. Once they caught him again and broke out his windows with helmets, there wasn’t much he could do assuming he was unarmed and untrained.
A reply to one of Don’s links puts the whole thing in a bit of context.
Scroll down to where a trucker says this is a standard MO around NY/NJ.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
Thanks for the info Cat re: him calling 911. I’m really curious though, has any news agency broadcast the audio from the call? For a situation like that, normally we would want to keep the driver on the line until units were able to meet up with them. They should have a pretty long recording of everything that was going on from the driver’s standpoint. If they put it out there already then my bad – I don’t watch the news…
The commentary from the truck driver:
<<<<<<<<
50deltaputNEW11 hours agoFrom a truck driver:
Michael Xavier Kaulbach： As a trucker that would deliver in north jersey
and New York I am familiar with these gangs. I can hopefully clarify a few
things. First the initial “accident” is part of a game they play. They ride
in a huge group and will operate together to slow down traffic. Next they
pick out high end vehicles targeting people with families in them, the
targets will usually be white or Asian. Then one of the riders will do a ”
brake check” and stop suddenly in front of the target vehicle causing a
minor bump. In some cases they will just roll back into their target vehicle
. They will then mob the vehicle demanding money and or begin attacking the
person inside. It is their practice to also slash the tires to prevent the
vehicle from escaping. Truckers are well aware of them and are advised not
to stop.PRAISE THE LORD THAT MR. Mieses CAN NO LONGER DO HARM TO OTHERS!!
THANK YOU MR. LIEN!
>>>>>>>>We can take that and run with it (where I was kinda heading too in this discussion) – where this situation is a result of a pre-planned malicious criminal act rather than a sudden fit of anger.
Re: locked/unlocked doors and easy access to the interior of your vehicle. Now we’re getting somewhere. Awareness of surroundings while in your car (never condition White). Presence of mind to quickly lock all the doors upon approach of a potential problem/threat (in this case even before coming to the initial stop). Good to know your own car – some automatically lock the doors upon driving, some don’t. Some may not have automatic door locks at all or they might but could be malfunctioning/broken.
The potential for assailants to attempt to disable your vehicle when they draw near also has to be considered – if they are successful, that severely limits your available options. Supposedly these thugs slashed the SUV’s tires upon initial contact but I would have expected more signs of tire damage during the video – maybe he had run flat tires?
Addressing “untrained” – that’s kind of what this discussion is for – to learn from the experiences of others in preparation for if/when it might happen to us. We can’t do any prac app online but we can mentally rehearse (which is better than nothing IMO)…
Addressing “unarmed” – let’s say he doesn’t have any firearms or knives or sticks/stones/sporting equipment/whathaveyou with him at all. Just him, his wife, and his kid. Let’s even say they’re all naked in the car and they have nothing with them except a cellphone and a car seat (ruling out both of those as weapons) and have zero personal fighting ability – I put forward to you that he is still Not unarmed (and he wasn’t completely “unarmed” at the end of the incident either). IMO, there was still one or two things he could have done near the end BUT it also boils down to what degree of threat he perceived and what he was willing or not willing to do based on that.
Btw, let’s also consider if you were being chased after that initial contact. What might another option be? If all you want to do is to try to get away, where would you drive to? Where would you try to avoid? What advantages/disadvantages might there be intrinsic to an SUV and/or a motorcycle?
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
Okay, I’ll give it a shot with some random thoughts.
First the wife and child. Tell her to grab the kid out of the back seat and crouch down in the footwell. That gets them out of the line of fire and gives you room to fight.
The best weapon is the SUV. Motorcycles can’t do too much harm as long as you keep moving and try to take their asses out if they get too close. He eventually got stopped by traffic but he shouldn’t have stopped. SUVs have reverse and motorcycles don’t. Keep moving back and forth trying to smash as many of them as you can.
Driving to hook up with police officers would be ideal but apparently that wasn’t possible in this case.
I keep a maglite in the car and that’s a pretty decent weapon. But if they manage to get a door open and they’re determined enough it would be hard to fight them off. Better to keep moving so they can’t get the door open.
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
I like the way you think Cat!!
“The best weapon is the SUV.” That’s what I’m talking about! 😉
I’m guessing he didn’t have any dedicated or traditional weapons with him but in this case, he’s in an SUV and they’re on organ donor cycles!
IF he felt that he and his family were in danger being killed or seriously injured, I have NO problem with him driving his SUV through and over the people/motorcycles surrounding him. Justifying that or making it seem like a reasonable course of action is where the importance of description/articulation comes into play afterwards! You have to make everyone you’re telling the story to later Feel like they were in the car with you and also in dire jeopardy. If you use subjective terminology, if you’re vague or ambiguous, if you leave things out, etc those people hearing the story later won’t understand what you went through. And your intentions were simply to get away, not necessarily to run over people/bikes and hurt/kill them.
Once you fight your way clear but are still being pursued, is the threat gone? No! Being outnumbered like that, your best bets are to stay mobile (same thing if you were all on foot) and to try to get somewhere safe(r).
Let’s say you were the SUV driver after the initial contact/drive through. Now you’re trying to get you and your family out of danger/to safety. They’re still chasing you. I would be AFRAID that they would get close enough to disable my car, damage my windshield so I couldn’t see, break through my windows and harm me or my family, jump onto my vehicle, surround me and box me in, etc. IF that’s the case, I would be making my car into as an erratic/unpredictable/elusive target as possible – swerving, braking, speeding up/slowing down, etc. Some of the bikes/bikers could have been possibly struck but I was concentrating on getting away and protecting my family.
At one point, it looks like they pressured him into exiting the freeway and onto city streets – unless that’s where I wanted to go, I would rather stay where I have more room/road/freedom. I would have driven through them and stayed on the freeway. I was simply trying to maintain my direction of travel because I knew that the open road/continued forward motion afforded me the best chance for surviving the encounter – they were the ones who ran into me.
But ok, let’s say you end up getting stuck in traffic (on that city street or maybe even on the freeway) and they get off their bikes and rush your SUV. I would have the same fears as I did from the initial contact. Broken window? Condition Red/Black now and everything goes. I’m with Cat – I’d be gunning my SUV all over the place (jerking forwards/backwards, reversing, 3 point turning, bootleg turning, doing donuts, etc) to make it difficult for them to get to me and my family (and if I happen to knock some of them over, oh well – I was just trying to keep them away from getting into my car and killing my wife and child).
BTW, I should say that NOTHING I’ve posted in this thread should be taken as legal advice or official law enforcement recommendation or KMWW instructor guidance!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously!
IMO, the principles of dealing with multiple attackers is the same whether you’re on foot or in a car. Stay on your feet and as mobile as possible. Try not to let them flank or surround. If you have to engage, hit hard and fast and don’t get tangled up with any one attacker. Use whatever weapons you have or can improvise (when choosing weapons, the faster you can put one or more down for an extended period of time, the better – and longer effective range is better too). If you are being chased for an extended period, “run and gun”. As early as possible, try to call for help or get resources rolling your way – meet up if at all possible. Get to a less remote location or somewhere safe(r). If you can, “stack” them up so you only have to deal with one or two or less of them at any one time – do you have any bottleneck areas around? ETC!
In this case, though, you have the added factor/difficulty of keeping 2 other people safe as well as yourself, one of them being a 2 year old! – so it’s not like you can just run away by yourself (i.e. you have less of a duty to retreat). And you definitely can’t give up!
In the end, IIRC, the POSes were unfortunately able to pull the driver out and then beat him and slash him with knives. Fortunately, the wife and child weren’t harmed (although that would have been foremost in my mind). I read that some bystanders intervened – if that’s true I’m not sure what might have happened to the driver and his family if no one had been around.
Knowing about incidents like these also plays a big part in your decision making processes, your articulation of what happened and why you did what you did, and the reasonableness of your actions…
Sorry this post is kinda rushed/disjointed, have to run to the dentist… :OhMy:
Re: motorcycles vs suv road rage in NY
I heard on the news tonight that 911 wasn’t a whole lot of help. His wife called them 4 times so they obviously didn’t stay on the phone with her. In their defense, these criminals were operating under the cover of an anarchy-style event where 1000+ bikes were raising hell all over town with the goal to converge on Times Square. 911 was probably swamped with calls about rowdy bikers. Note, these were punks on sport bikes and dirt bikes, not the hardcore Harley-riding guys we usually think of when you say bike gang.
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