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quote DirtyHippieUte:If we really want to teach these people some practical skills, we should start with teaching them where they should and shouldn’t be walking… THEN we should teach them what to do if they find themselves out of the fishbowl and in a bad place.
Yes, I totally agree with this. I think our “always look around” type drills help this, but day one should consist of – Keep your hands out of your pockets, don’t be afraid to cross the street, walk home with someone else… etc. This stuff isn’t super complicated though, you could probably cover it in one or two classes.
quote DirtyHippieUte:if you’re a smaller guy things don’t look good for you if some thug gets his paw on you. In my experience, most “thugs” aren’t going to pick on somebody unless they have a- a weapon or b- a decent size advantage.I also really agree with this. I think a good reality check every now and then of “You should probably try to run” would be helpful. But of course, I don’t think we should make it a big part of our training. After all, I can go sprinting in my own time. I came here to learn self defense if I need it.
Oh, yes, the Giant Killer fight, one of my favorites!
I’m 5’1”, 105 pounds. While I’d rather face a small attacker than a large one, unfortunately I can’t choose and will have to do my best against whoever decides to attack me. The whole defense is supposed to be done fast and hopefully the attacker will be taken off guard, allowing me to do some quick counters before getting away.
By the way, how come there is that bowing smiley anytime someone uses a word with the word “bow” in it? Like elbow, fishbowl etc
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GiantkillerJust thought it was funny. I was going to indicate that with another smiley, but it says you can use only four in your entire message? Can that be changed to maybe 6 at least or so? The new smileys are so cool, I bet people would want to use more than 4 sometimes.
Great job with everything though, forum’s looking cooler and cooler!!
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GiantkillerRe: "On the street"
Your posts generally seem to have a provocative edge to them, Mr. Dirty Hippie, but Iíll take you straight up as being curious about teaching methods.
First, you say, ìitís a bit comical to hear an instructor talk about how a person needs to be ready ëon the streetí.î I say that any Krav Maga instructor who didnít make that point just about every class is doing his / her students a disservice. Itís called situational awareness. I stress that my students, be they cops (some are) or housewives (some are), pay attention to whatís going around them. After all, the best way to get out of a bad situation is not to get in one, right? Condition yellow, instead of condition white, will keep you safer.
Having said that, itís still possible that bad things can find you. Itís my experience as a cop that a person is way more likely to be attacked by someone that they know well than by a stranger. That doesnít change the dynamic at all, however ñ the attacked must defend and survive. And Krav Maga teaches us that the defense must involve a counterattack, right? Screaming and running work fine, perhaps, until hands are clasped around your neck. Now your choices have narrowed to fight or submit (and die). I choose to fight. God willing, my students will as well. Can a good person be attacked by a stranger? Sad to say but it happens here on my little slice of surburbia all too often. It happened to one of my Krav Maga students one night. The bad guy ended up on the ground with his leg twitching when my officers showed upÖ The result seemed real enough for the bad guy that night.
Reality check, you say? Hereís one for you: I teach that if some dirty hippie who is 6-1, 250 lbs. should grab one of my students in a bear hug, said dirty hippie should very quickly know the reality of the studentís finger jabbed into an eye. I believe that if one of my soccer moms has just replaced your eyeball with her thumb that youíll be inclined to relax your grip. If youíve got her arms pinned, then itís time for her to kick your groin and smash her head into the bridge of your nose. Perhaps you have true balls of steel. Us normal humans will suffer ill effects and will want to reconsider our choice of victims.
Krav Maga is reality based. Itís not points sparring. If youíve got another system that you feel would be more reality-based, then by all means speak up with your reality check.
Re: "On the street"
quote stevetuna:Your posts generally seem to have a provocative edge to them, Mr. Dirty Hippie, but Iíll take you straight up as being curious about teaching methods.Sadly, I am genetically predisposed to be far more sarcastic than most people prefer. I’m like this in real life too… Most people just learn to take me with a grain of salt.
quote stevetuna:First, you say, ìitís a bit comical to hear an instructor talk about how a person needs to be ready ëon the streetí.î I say that any Krav Maga instructor who didnít make that point just about every class is doing his / her students a disservice.I don’t mind every class but every 5 minutes gets a littly annoying. I see the need to constantly remind people that power comes from the rotation in the hips but the “on the street” talk just seems a little melodramatic.
quote stevetuna:Itís my experience as a cop that a person is way more likely to be attacked by someone that they know well than by a stranger.Absolutely no sarcasm here, serious curiosity, is there any statistical information on that? I think that is fascinating. If anyone is more likely to be attacked by stranger I would think it would be a cop. Some of these statistics really interest me. Recently I learned that the NUMBER ONE cause of death in pregnant women is domestic homicide.
quote stevetuna:Should grab one of my students in a bear hug, said dirty hippie should very quickly know the reality of the studentís finger jabbed into an eye. I believe that if one of my soccer moms has just replaced your eyeball with her thumb that youíll be inclined to relax your grip. If youíve got her arms pinned, then itís time for her to kick your groin and smash her head into the bridge of your nose.I don’t disagree with this… The part I question is the next layer of attack. IMHO at this point said soccer mom should be making haste for the nearest populated area rather than turning into the attacker and trying to throw knees.
Re: "On the street"
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, but I do think DHU has a valid point.
I often question the training that keeps students engaged in protracted “fights” as opposed to quickly and aggressively rendering the assailant unwilling or unable to continue fighting, if only for long enough to facilitate escape. As ranges erode and time increases, variables increase, so it’s best to hit hard and fast and get the hell out ASAP.
Just my opinion.
Re: "On the street"
quote DirtyHippieUte:The part I question is the next layer of attack. IMHO at this point said soccer mom should be making haste for the nearest populated area rather than turning into the attacker and trying to throw knees.I would guess the soccer mom (or anyone who’s life is truely being threatened) probably would leave as soon as possible. If she just sank her thumb in his eye, maybe the guy dropped to the ground in pain. I doubt she would stand him back up so she could finish her routine as taught. Following thru with “the next layer” might be appropriate if she is still engaged in the fight. Best to train for the worst case scenario, no?
I’m curious tho, how would you set up a course if you had the option? Guys follow thru with the next layer and the women execute an eye poke and run out of the gym? Maybe the guys can run over and protect the women when they scream? At that point I think it would cease to be krav and would take on a face more familiar to women’s self-defense courses taught at the Y in a one or two hour seminar.
Attackers aren’t created equally. Some malnourished crack addict might be less of a physical threat than some of the people the soccer mom trains with in class. At the other end of the spectrum, some street wise gang member might be more than some of the toughest krav instructors want to remain locked up with for an extended period of time.
As far as krav instruction goes, it should remain blind to gender imo. Students need to be able to evaluate the situation, react accordingly to any threat, and above all… know your limits. That part isn’t gender specific.
Re: "On the street"
*sigh*
I don’t want to fight longer than I have to, really. Problem is, what if the attacker thought you were an easy mark and left his knife or gun out of the mix at first? Not doing SOME damage before retreating may leave you open to attack with a weapon, and possibly from behind.
My goal is to break free, gain distance, draw my firearm, in that order. Hopefully, that will enable me to TRULY get to safety. I am not going to rely on my ability to run, or help from strangers.
Re: "On the street"
Sigh, is right. No one said don’t do damage. That’s ludicrous.
I’m saying don’t linger longer than you have to. Don’t clinch someone much bigger (I don’t care about gender), throw 7 knees, all to the body, and not expect them to adjust. I’d prefer to have them working to the dead (fight half a man), throwing multiple attacks from multiple angles, and running away or going to higher force and then running away.
Another principle of KM is don’t trade one danger for another one. Be explosive and aggressive, without a doubt, but fights are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving, so the longer you stay engaged, the more chances of a weapon being drawn, a third party getting involved, you stumbling, etc.
All of that said, the circumstances will ALWAYS dictate your response. There may be situations where tactically you shouldn’t run, or situationally you can’t.
Re: "On the street"
BTW, I’m all for beating the s**t out of the attacker, trust me, I just think there are ways that are better than others, and tactics must come into play.
Re: "On the street"
This past Thursday I had 2 new students as my partners. One was a senior in high school and the other has had previous MA experience.
We were working on the 2 ahdned pluck from the front defense.
The first (high schooler) was very receptive to learning.I was explaining about doing your damage and escaping the situation for somewhere else safer.
The second student was very much a hold on and try to grapple, wrist lock, arm bar, go to the ground , type of person. He wanted to grab and hold and pound. I tried to explain that he wants to get away from the threat A.S.A.P., he wasn’t quite that receptive. I pointed this out to the instructor, so that maybe he could address this with him in another class.
Also so that his partner would be fully aware of his aggressive nature.
Re: "On the street"
quote Ryan:I often question the training that keeps students engaged in protracted “fights” as opposed to quickly and aggressively rendering the assailant unwilling or unable to continue fightingI have to question that training too…. everything we do is explosive, brutal, and quickly puts us in a position to escape or continue fighting. Are u sure u’re teaching krav? :Unsure:
kidding! beer
Re: "On the street"
quote Paragon:*sigh*I don’t want to fight longer than I have to, really. Problem is, what if the attacker thought you were an easy mark and left his knife or gun out of the mix at first? Not doing SOME damage before retreating may leave you open to attack with a weapon, and possibly from behind.
My goal is to break free, gain distance, draw my firearm, in that order. Hopefully, that will enable me to TRULY get to safety. I am not going to rely on my ability to run, or help from strangers.
Agreed. When I saw this video, it reminded me of this thread, and in particular this post. It’s a bit graphic, but it shows just how bad it can get. As I’m watching the video, I couldn’t help but notice things that we’re trained not to do such as turning our back while there’s still a threat, backing straight up instead of turning to an angle, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NIjLask_qc
It’s not an armchair warrior evaluation, just trying to imagine what the officer (or maybe a soccer mom) with a Krav background might do differently if faced with the same attacker. Police are grossly underpaid.
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