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I think this occurs frequently after counter attacking from inside defense, you gain advantage getting to opponent’s side, and in event you place yourself behind him. What are the countermeasures when you see his back. I know striking to his head and spine, kick to the knee joint all the ugly stuffs then evade.
How about a tackle or takedown from back. Is this a recommended action or just another MMA move. Maybe a hit and run kind of thing to avoid being tangled on ground. I occasionaly feel when you were unable to disarm his weapon of any kind, it may be better to slam his face to the ground to temporarily disable the upcoming attack.
An option you might consider if you end up behind your attacker is to give a good hard kick right up between their legs. Itís hard for them to see it coming with their back to you and may gain you even more time to leave the area if you can.
Personally I do not want to go to the ground with a person if I can avoid it, they may have a friend nearby that will pound me while I am tied up on the ground (or just be a better grappler).
One thing this reminds me of is the machine-gun takedown we do sometimes against certain gun attacks and short automatic guns, such as a machine-gun. You evade the gun, end up behind the attacker, then lift him and dump him to the ground. The bigger you are, the better you can dump him, really lift him, then point his head toward the floor and smash him down. That would be very effective, however, if you are smaller and able to lift him at all, you probably wouldn’t be able to slam him very hard and he may still have some life in him once he hits the ground, so you would need to follow up with punches and/or kicks to the head.
For other attacks, I don’t know, depends on the situation. If you can do it quickly, it may be worth it. Once he’s on the ground, you don’t have to go down with him. You could just kick him or stomp on his head a couple of times, then run.
There’s some takedowns that probably won’t bring you to the ground. In a Dog Brothers video, there’s a takedown they call \”yanking the chain\” where you grip their back with one hand and grab their groin with the other hand, and pull them to drop them on their head. You can go into what’s called a \”street side control\” where you’re bent over holding them down with their chest away from you, but you’re still standing so you can get away if there’s friends, and you can deliver brutal knees to the spine and kidneys. Another takedown option, sometimes called a Belgian takedown, is where you grab the legs and dump them forward on their head, then, while maintaining the hold on the feet, you can boot them in the groin.
With that machine gun takedown, it seems like you’d want to drop him fast rather htan really lift him up first- he has a gun that you’re not controlling so he can still control and shoot it, and you don’t want him to be able to turn around at all- you want him face down so the gun is pinned to the floor. If he’s in the air, he’ll try to turn towards you and may land on his back, putting you in a very bad position. I don’t really know what I’m talking about here, but this is how it seems from what I hear.
For the machine gun takedown (if he’s behind you), you spin around and end up behind him, but a little to the side. One arm shoots in between his legs, the other traps the arm that is holding the weapon. Then you lift him and dump him. It’s not necessary to lift him up high, that’s just a possibility if you are a lot bigger and stronger and can do it easily (I had Amir demonstrate with me once, he’s 230 pounds of muscle, I’m less than half that and he was able to lift me and turn my head toward the ground quickly and in such a way that he would have surely broken my neck if he had jammed me into the ground). Ordinarily, you just dump him. It’s assumed that he will probably let go of the gun to break his fall as you throw him. Then you can follow up with some combatives and run, or run right away. I don’t know if there is actually any way to end up with the weapon in this defense (unless he turns around and then you might be able to grab the gun from there, although that would probably be a bad case scenario).
Thanks for sharing your experience with Amir. He seems to inflict pain to everyone with a smile in his face. Hope he makes another trip to Tokyo some day soon.
I was woundering is this lift up take down strictly applied to long range/automatic fire arms. Due to the nature the weapon could possibly be strapped to his body?
I thought of applying this also in case of blades and handgun where the defender is completely out of attackers range. If the defender accidentaly placed himself behind, he doesn’t have to go back front to do regular gun/knife defense does he?
Taking him to the ground ties you up and his buddies kick your head in……!!!!! In a cage match, great idea, on the street, probably not.
I personally like the downward side kick/stomp to the back of the knee followed with a knee to the back of the skull, but thats just me…….
JC
I’m sure Amir will be coming to Tokyo one day. I bet he loves tossing tiny Japanese guys around! He’s unreal – one time I was on the ground and he grabbed my foot and casually picked me up with only his left hand. I was just dangling there helplessly. Didn’t seem to take any effort whatsoever. 😆
About the machine gun takedown: It’s done against short machine guns, but can also be done against a regular gun if you can’t get to the weapon in any other way. For example, if the assailant is behind you and has the gun pressed against his side and his other arm across your back, on your shoulder, making it impossible for you to turn toward the gun to defend. Then you can spin the other way and do the takedown, land on him, give counters, grab the gun if it’s out there.
If it’s still underneath him, I’m not sure what to do then. Hopefully you can knock him out, but if not, he might spin and put the gun back on you. I guess in that case you would have to do a gun from the front defense.
Since I’m small, I honestly have some doubts on whether I could make this defense work against a much bigger guy. Extreme example, what if I had to do it against Amir? Let’s say Amir without fighting skills or knowledge about defenses. Still, a huge guy. While it’s theoretically possible that I could lift him, if I practice often enough, get my legs into the right position etc – I doubt I’d be able to get him more than an inch of the ground. I could still dump him from there, but of course he will also be moving and struggling as soon as I start my spin and I wonder if I would ever get into the correct position to lift him and whether the fall would really hurt him if I did succeed in dumping him.
I wonder if there isn’t another alternative for smaller people. The spin itself can still work and I would be out of the line of fire. If I can’t lift him, what else could I do? If he has a gun in his right hand, could I get around his back, maybe grab the wrist and gun from behind, pull the arm toward me (almost as if I were going for a shoulderlock, but out of the line of fire of course), then, once the arm is near or behind his back, make a takeaway similar to the one for gun to the side in front of the arm? I could give a strong groin squeeze or hit right after the spin, on my way to the gun, but then instead of attempting to lift, continue moving across his back to reach the arm that is holding the gun. Seems riskier, but may be more realistic if your attacker is a lot larger than you are. If it’s a machine gun, I might be able to do a different takeaway.
Are there any official alternatives to the machine gun takedown? I don’t think this is ever being done against knives, although I guess it would be possible, but there may be safer things to do.
An addition to the \”Belgian Takedown\” Described by CLFmak, after kicking in the jewells, you can place your leg on the back of their knee with the top of their foot resting on your hip, the further forward you lean after that the more damage you can do. Separation of the knee is very quick if you wrap the leg and drop down immediately. Getting up would be quick from that but depending on \”friends\”, this wouldn’t always be a great idea…
In Imi’s book there is one description of a multiple attacker exercise, where one attacker has a knife, the other a stick. You should go for the stick first, but in this situation the attacker with the knife was so close that the defender had to make the defense against him first. He just redirected and punched, didn’t actually take the knife, but ended up behind the attacker as the second attacker approaches. He then kicked the back of the first attacker’s legs, right behind the knee, making him collapse and fall forward, into the second attacker.
I have actually never done that in training, but looks like that in that instance it was recommended to take the attacker with the knife to the ground (but not follow him there). So I guess this can be done against knife in some circumstances (although this was different from the machine gun takedown).
Any of you guys think of choking someone, or manipulating them by their head when their back has been exposed?
No one mentioned it.
Choking someone out can take a while, even if you are doing it right. Also, he might grab your arms, trying to defend and you’ll end up engaged in a ground fight with a guy, who still has the gun. He may just take it and shoot you. So for weapons defenses I don’t know. If he doesn’t have a weapon and you can do it quickly (no friends of his around) then it may be an option, but just smashing his head into the ground may be quicker. 😉
Given him off balanced after previous counter attack, it may be a bit difficult to get hold of his head. If he’s bent over, no chance.
I never thought of choking because in class everyone is taught to defend against all kinds of those.I reacon an optional 2 handed slap with cupped hands arround his ears to interupt his ballance, then a front kick to the back of the knee or achilles tendonto buckle the leg. Then hand round the front to grab the throat, nose, eyes wherever and accelerate his head down into the pavement. Then run like f**k and hope no cctv has got you because chances are that he wont get up again!
Just because you take him down doesn’t mean that you’re getting tied up and are going to the groud as well. If you are a submission grappler and you only use sacrifice throws, you will probably end up there, but lots of takedowns won’t get you on the ground.
Chokes- one of the ways to choke, which I learned from a kung fu guy (but don’t know which individual style) involved getting to the back, taking him down to the ground to a sitting position from wither a knee kick or judo type throw, then from a knee in back type position, you reach your right hand around his right side to his left shoulder, then grab his shirt and pull right and back- this chokes with the shirt. This type of choke is an interseting tool, but like any clothing manipulation it won’t work on everyone.
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