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\”the point is the krav maga defense will work for the average person against the average person… it will even work against a highly skilled attacker IF its TRAINED with a highly skilled attacker.\”
Vicious, how does the defense change based on the skill of the attacker? I understand your point about training and I’d agree that you probably get more out of your training if your partner is always a little better than you because it pushes you to the next level, but the defenses don’t change with the experience level of your partner. The defense is the same if it’s a good rnc, or a poor rnc…
do think the defense against a choke from the front would work if you never had someone choke you hard? the difference is a rnc is slightly more complicated so to have someone without experience apply it the same level of intensity as the guy who does choke from the front…
i guess this post is less a statement about technique and MORE of a statement about training methods.
The technique is practically the same (though you have to be able to switch from one side to the other without getting caught… meaning that while your plucking my right arm i’m already sending my left arm as if my right was a setup though its not). i just feel it needs to be practiced with a relentless attacker.
a good rnc is only felt when its in the final stage of being locked on. i remember first training in grappling arts… never being able to get someone with a RNC because the movement wasn’t as smooth as it needed to be… i didn’t ingrain the movement into my muscle memory, under stress… RNC’s are still a case of action verse reaction… but as long as the action is longer than the reaction your fine… i’m saying find someone who can apply it faster than you can react… it benefits the krav class…
\”though you have to be able to switch from one side to the other without getting caught… meaning that while your plucking my right arm i’m already sending my left arm as if my right was a setup though its not\”
I don’t buy this. If I’m plucking your right arm, my chin is down and my body is turned into you–there’s no room or time for the left, and your \”training methods\” afford you the opportunity to know your partner will defend, which allows you to pre-empt the defense.
\”a krav student’s reflex to shrug your shoulders, to tuck your chin, to pluck are arms, is NOT going to help you if its a complete surprize from a student of a system that specializes in rear naked chokes…\”
How often to you train the RNC from standing in your BJJ class? How often do you train it to \”attack/pre-empt\” someone, or is it normally in the context of protracted grappling? Do you train the RNC while dealing with atemi? How about with stress? Multiples? Weapons? Third party? Confined spaces? Outdoors?
Usually, when we practice this, we don’t have the attacker put on (or attempt to put on) a full RNC. The attacker just clasps his hands together. Still, the defense would work if you were fast enough. However, there are no guarantees. If your opponent is very skilled, he might put it on so quickly, you will not be able to react in time.
Reminds me how, a long time ago, Amir was having some fun with Mitch Tavera, sneaking up on him and putting him into a RNC. He had to tap out, even though he is a very experienced, alert fighter, but he was taken by surprise by an equally skilled opponent and thus wasn’t fast enough with the KM or any other defense.
So a skilled opponent could present a problem. Another thing to watch out for is the possibility of turning the RNC into a neck crank instead (when you turn your head in to defend). If the attacker knows what he’s doing this could hurt or even break your neck. Just something to watch out for.
\”Reminds me how, a long time ago, Amir was having some fun with Mitch Tavera, sneaking up on him and putting him into a RNC. He had to tap out, even though he is a very experienced, alert fighter, but he was taken by surprise by an equally skilled opponent and thus wasn’t fast enough with the KM or any other defense.\”
Okay, Amir is the top 1% in the world, I’d wager. Also, what was the context? They were just standing around at the NTC? I bet you if Mitch was at an ATM at 10 PM, things would have been different (not saying that Amir still couldn’t tap him, but the fight would take on a different feel, and Mitch would likely be much more aware.) Furthermore, it’s a friend sneaking up on another friend–of course he tapped. He wasn’t fighting for his life.
\”If the attacker knows what he’s doing this could hurt or even break your neck.\”
You’ve heard of someone having their neck broken in this manner? If my chin is tucked, how are you going to break my neck?
There is a neck crank that can be done in that manner (when your chin is tucked and turned to the side to defend the choke, the blade of the arm is pulled up against the tucked chin, your head pressed down at the same time, hard to explain, but I’ve had it done to me and have done it to others and it’s definitely dangerous).
I’m just saying, if someone is able to sneak up on you (for whatever reason – you let your guard down, you shouldn’t but you did) and puts it on quickly, it may be very hard to defend. You really only have a split second to catch that hand as it slides around your neck. Once the choke is closed, our defense won’t work anymore and your only chance is to try some other type of defense, which will be much harder, if not impossible, to do. If it’s a good choke, you only have a couple of seconds before you’ll pass out and even strong counters may not do enough to force him to let go. He could also break your neck from that position (different than the neck crank), if he pulls your head back while holding the RNC. If he does that, you’ll have even less time to defend.
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quote \”Giantkiller\:There is a neck crank that can be done in that manner (when your chin is tucked and turned to the side to defend the choke, the blade of the arm is pulled up against the tucked chin, your head pressed down at the same time, hard to explain, but I’ve had it done to me and have done it to others and it’s definitely dangerous).I’m just saying, if someone is able to sneak up on you (for whatever reason – you let your guard down, you shouldn’t but you did) and puts it on quickly, it may be very hard to defend. You really only have a split second to catch that hand as it slides around your neck. Once the choke is closed, our defense won’t work anymore and your only chance is to try some other type of defense, which will be much harder, if not impossible, to do. If it’s a good choke, you only have a couple of seconds before you’ll pass out and even strong counters may not do enough to force him to let go. He could also break your neck from that position (different than the neck crank), if he pulls your head back while holding the RNC. If he does that, you’ll have even less time to defend.
EXACTLY what i was trying to say. if i came off like the technique will never work, my bad…
Ryan, when i train with RNCs i don’t \”pre-empt\” the defense…
also, i thought the krav maga assumption was the the chin will not be tucked(worst case)? Yes, if you tuck it instantly, it helps, but how often when training, are people able to tuck their chin before the arm is around their neck. More importantly do you think the attack is worth a damn if the person defending was able to tuck their chin before the arm gets around?
Back to your post… we do practice standing, but also on the ground, yes i’d say we practice with stress, no we don’t practice with multiples but i feel placing someone in a RNC wouldn’t hinder my ability to fight multiples (having a temporary shield i can drop at any moment doesn’t hurt) no, not with weapons, but are we talking about a third party having a weapon? or the person who’s unconscious? confined spaces, Yes. outdoors, only when i’ve gotten into fights and put them RNCs on people (once so far)
but does ANY of that have to do with the safety of a student? i wasn’t arguing that krav students should learn RNCs as attacks (i like them, but they’re not for everyone) i was saying krav maga students shouldn’t have a false sense of confidence when it comes to defending them… that when a RNC comes up in conversation the reaction of \”Oh, its JUST a RNC, we can defend that\” could get them killed… maybe you didn’t read but i train Krav maga 3-4 times a week.. i love the system, but more importantly i love my classmates and i’d appreciate them NOT getting choked out.
I read everything you said, but you missed my point. Most BJJ classes aren’t going to train the RNC for the same context as it would be applied in a KM class. That leads to a \”flaw\” in your training methodology. The context is different, so the delivery systems are different. You see, it needs to work both ways.
Look, no one is saying it won’t be difficult. You need to act as early as possible and as explosively as possible, and you’ll still have a fight on your hands.
GK, I still call BS on the whole neck break from a modified neck crank from a modified RNC. If you weren’t able to get the RNC because they defended it, I’m assuming they are moving, and they are moving away from the pressure of the crank, and you are cranking them into their shoulder. No break.
I’m just saying it’s a possibility. Something to watch out for. Don’t know if it would be as effective from standing as it would be from the ground. There is also a face crush that can be done if the defender tucks his chin. It’s very painful, but I’m not sure whether or not that move could break anything.
One thing to remember in this debate is that our defense isn’t really designed to work with a closed RNC. Usually, when we practice the defense in class, we’ll have the attacker put on a simpler choke that can then be defended even if you are late. If someone is intent on catching you in a RNC from the beginning and you aren’t able to pluck the hand and turn your head quickly enough, he may very well be able to complete the choke. Or, as Vicious was saying, he might be quick enough to slide in the other arm as you are defending against the first.
I actually like the idea of practicing to defend this choke against someone who is good at putting it on – it can only lead to improving your reaction time, so that, if a skilled person is trying to attack you, you will better your chances of succeeding with your defense.
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