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Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Russ…. After reading your post, I bought my ticket. I’ll be out there at 9pm tonight. If you could have some farmer girls pick me up at the airport, that’d be appreciated! Who do I talk to about sign-up for the next tractor pull?!
In all seriousness…. I appreciate your comments. I’ve honestly thought about packing up, transfering guard units, and moving somewhere in BFE. I just wish I wouldn’t have to give up surfing and my band to do it!!!
Miriam… While I’m sure our political views differ, that’s what makes this country great and allows checks and ballances to be effective. In every dispute, you have 2 sides and the truth somewhere in the middle. Sometimes it works better than others, but I’d rather have to compromise my side a bit than live under some of the oppressive regimes I’ve seen in other countries!
With that being said… I’m still always down to give a bunch of protesters a good old-fashioned :chair::Deadhorse::abx::box2::box::combat:. Sorry… I had to use those. :beer:
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote russell:i don’t assume that all liberals are anti war, but in this situation i was supporting a person who is a vet who was offended by a anti war protest, and making a point that in other country’s we could be jailed,tortured or killed for talking or typing our own ideas, if you want to know the truth i’m more consertive than liberal but i support both political groups ideas, im very open minded, i live my life by the idea that our freedom’s are what make america “AMERICA”and i went to paris once, paris kentucky the city of trailer lights and if you like sushi in kentucky it’s under cooked catfish haha!!!
To clarify on that (because a lot of people don’t understand my position on it)… I do support their right to protest, but then again, with freedom comes responsibility. If you’re going to protest something, do it because you’ve researched the issue and you are seeking change on an issue you are knowlegeable on. I understand there are reasons to be against the war, but whenever I run into these people and try to engage them in an inteligent conversation, they get confrontational and start yelling ignorant insults in my face and upon questioning, don’t know a damn thing about the issue. I’m all for inteligent debate and orderly protest, but blindly jumping on a bandwaggon and not caring who you offend is R-E-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S!!!!
J-
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote downforlife76:Russ…. After reading your post, I bought my ticket. I’ll be out there at 9pm tonight. If you could have some farmer girls pick me up at the airport, that’d be appreciated! Who do I talk to about sign-up for the next tractor pull?!In all seriousness…. I appreciate your comments. I’ve honestly thought about packing up, transfering guard units, and moving somewhere in BFE. I just wish I wouldn’t have to give up surfing and my band to do it!!!
Miriam… While I’m sure our political views differ, that’s what makes this country great and allows checks and ballances to be effective. In every dispute, you have 2 sides and the truth somewhere in the middle. Sometimes it works better than others, but I’d rather have to compromise my side a bit than live under some of the oppressive regimes I’ve seen in other countries!
With that being said… I’m still always down to give a bunch of protesters a good old-fashioned :chair::Deadhorse::abx::box2::box::combat:. Sorry… I had to use those. :beer:
great timing the thunder national indoor hot rod monster truck races are this weekend(i’m serious) our guard unit is a quatermaster unit(no helicopters) and we have a ok band scene(i checked your myspace) lots of college rock and metal, but not much punk, we have 1 krav maga center,lot’s of farm girls,pick up truck’s, redneck’s, hunting, beer, and not one war protest, unless you count the waco’s form another state who say god kill’s the soldiers because of our views on abortion and homosexuals
i’ll see you at 9 when the flight lands, but make sure the planes not late, the airport shut’s down at 9 and the controller unplug’s the light when he leaves
russell
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
well said, russell… I got’cha… I respect ya… but I will pass on kentucky sushi and stick to L.A.’s finest sushi (Sasabune, Katsu-ya…), fresh flakey croissants, and the Champs D’Elysees! thumbsup
quote russell:i don’t assume that all liberals are anti war, but in this situation i was supporting a person who is a vet who was offended by a anti war protest, and making a point that in other country’s we could be jailed,tortured or killed for talking or typing our own ideas, if you want to know the truth i’m more consertive than liberal but i support both political groups ideas, im very open minded, i live my life by the idea that our freedom’s are what make america “AMERICA”and i went to paris once, paris kentucky the city of trailer lights and if you like sushi in kentucky it’s under cooked catfish haha!!!
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
I totally know what you mean re: the difficulty in trying to engage in intelligent conversation on an issue with someone who operates only out of emotion, and not intellect or knowledge. I have to deal with a-holes like that waaaay too frequently. Oh yeah, did I mention I practice law for a living?? rofl2
And hey – if you ever train @ West LA, I’ll be happy to have an intelligent discussion with you!
quote downforlife76:To clarify on that (because a lot of people don’t understand my position on it)… I do support their right to protest, but then again, with freedom comes responsibility. If you’re going to protest something, do it because you’ve researched the issue and you are seeking change on an issue you are knowlegeable on. I understand there are reasons to be against the war, but whenever I run into these people and try to engage them in an inteligent conversation, they get confrontational and start yelling ignorant insults in my face and upon questioning, don’t know a damn thing about the issue. I’m all for inteligent debate and orderly protest, but blindly jumping on a bandwaggon and not caring who you offend is R-E-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S!!!!J-
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Then I guess I’ll have to keep my eyes peeled for him… or maybe he’ll have the nerve to take class when I’m teaching! HAHAHAHA!!!!
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote Miriam:maybe he’ll have the nerve to take class when I’m teaching! HAHAHAHA!!!!God knows I don’t… be afraid, be very very afraid (j/k) 🙂
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Since the topic brought up the idea of war protests…
***This post is in no way directed at anyone here, but to the protests themselves.***The biggest problem I have with these generic “end the war” campaigns is the absence of any realistic solution other than merely bringing the troops home. I do however, support their right to voice their opinion… no matter how childishly simplistic the solutions come across.
Iraq has been conquered, that bell can’t be unrung. We wont get into all the Iraqi violations of the UN resolutions that justified our actions, because the UN already did that for us:
quote :RESOLUTION 678 (1990)Adopted by the Security Council at its 2963rd meeting on 29 November 1990
The Security Council,Recalling, and reaffirming its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August (1990), 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of of 29 October 1990 and 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990.
Noting that, despite all efforts by the United Nations, Iraq refuses to comply with its obligation to implement resolution 660 (1990) and the above-mentioned subsequent relevant resolutions, in flagrant contempt of the Security Council,
Mindful of its duties and responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance and preservation of international peace and security,
Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions,
Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,
1. Demands that Iraq comply fully with resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions, and decides, while maintaining all its decisions, to allow Iraq one final opportunity, as a pause of goodwill, to do so;
2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the above-mentioned resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;
3. Requests all States to provide appropriate support for the actions undertaken in pursuance of paragraph 2 of the present resolution;
4. Requests the States concerned to keep the Security Council regularly informed on the progress of actions undertaken pursuant to paragraphs 2 and 3 of the present resolution;
5. Decides to remain seized of the matter.
or, from the more recent Resolution 1441:
quote :“Recognizing the threat Iraq’s noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorizes Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,…
…Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwait and third country nationals wrongly detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq.”
“Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);…”
With or without weapons of mass destruction, the UN (read “member states” from above UN 668) granted authority to enforce UN resolutions. Some disagree tho, and claim it means something else. Some people say Bush is a war criminal. But in the post 9/11 atmosphere, there were very few in opposition (politically speaking, in America). Again, for this discussion, deciding if Bush is a criminal doesn’t end the war so we’ll move on.
The bottom line remains that it violates international law to conquer a country and leave it helpless for the power vaccuum that would follow. We can’t just leave. So “end the war!” becomes the latest Bush bashing slogan with little to no thought behind it. No duh.. end the war. Brilliant. Now tackle the slightly more difficult question: How?
Until one of these bright individuals with more freetime than sense comes up with something a bit more thought out than “bush sux”, I’ll have to support the current efforts as outlined by international law which dictates the occupying force is tasked with providing security while they help the conquered country establish their own means for defense.
Diversity rules, and we all have different opinions. The protests are amusing, but I’m glad those in charge know better than to just “end the war”. I can’t help but notice the protesters look like they really believe that holding a sign up on a sunny afternoon is going to convince the US to violate international law and leave the Iraqi citizens open for a future of oppression worse than when Saddam ruled.
Hypocrites.I agree, eventually we need to come home and security will be the responsibility of the newly formed government in Iraq. Also, there is no doubt in my mind we’ll have a democratic president this time… and if he (I think obama will win) pulls troops out too soon, you’ll see any hopes for stability collapse. Any successful disengagement in the future has been built by the years of involvement so far…. failure caused by prematurely ending our support will be a political nightmare for anyone in office. I think both sides will be able to claim victory or lay blame for any outcome we see.
I guess we all think “the other side” is missing the point. Even us ‘unenlightened’ conservatives. I like hearing from both sides… makes life interesting. thumbsup
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Miriam… What classes do you teach? I’m always down for a challange!
quote vwr32:I agree, eventually we need to come home and security will be the responsibility of the newly formed government in Iraq.Not so fast…. What about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSJokTJLZu8Or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37WQY5LZmowTHAT is why we are staying in Iraq for so long. This isn’t even rare cases or exagerations sadly enough, lol!
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote downforlife76:Not so fast…. What about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSJokTJLZu8THAT is why we are staying in Iraq for so long. This isn’t even rare cases or exagerations sadly enough, lol!
Hilarious scene with the jumping jacks. It reminds me of a few level one classes I’ve been in. Probably what i looked like in basic training tho too… so maybe I shouldn’t judge. lol
Political topics are dangerous grounds… a couple jabs meant in jest open doors probably better left closed amongst people who have always been civil. Freedom of speech is a great concept, although most “adults” who enter political discussions think it only applies to those with ideology similar to their own. At least that’s been my experience.
It’s back to my conservative roots tonight. I had bbq chicken for dinner (from a can) and am working on a few Budweiser Selects while waiting to see if anyone else wants to carry the liberal torch in the thread. Maybe we’re better off talking about bob. Good times. :):
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote vwr32:Hilarious scene with the jumping jacks. It reminds me of a few level one classes I’ve been in. Probably what i looked like in basic training tho too… so maybe I shouldn’t judge. lolOkay… Okay… That’s enough. Stop ripping on us level 1ers! :thunbsdown:
My ex-girlfriend didn’t look that jacked up when I took her in for a class and she was a giggling, non-serious mess.
And if you think that video is bad… You’ve never been on a raid with those jokers. Talk about scary!!!
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Well, well, well, what do we have here? :):
Hmmm, hmmm, I wonder if it’s a bit presumptuous to assume that every single anti war protester is dumb and ignorant and only jumps on a bandwagon? I’m sure a number of them do, but then so do some of the people who are feverishly pro-war, so there are ignorant guys in both camps. In fact, jumping on a bandwagon is pretty much what got us into this mess in the first place. People were panicky because of 9/11, so when they were told how dangerous Saddam was supposed to be, they all went with it and decided we absolutely had to attack Iraq.
As for the UN resolutions, I find they don’t mean all that much, considering that the US is one of the five power brokers there and pretty much pushed their agenda, while at the same time using their veto power over the years to prevent resolutions from being adopted that would go against their interests or condemn allies, such as Israel.
Despite the veto power of the US, there are plenty of countries that are in violation of UN resolutions, yet we are not making the case that they should be attacked because of it:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2417
And the UN itself requires that conflicts should be settled by peaceful means first:
Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its members….
3. All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.Chapter Vl: Pacific Settlement of Disputes
Article 331. The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.
2. The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their disputes by such means.But now that we’re in this mess, question is how to get out. I’m divided here, as it seems that pulling out all the troops could indeed lead to more chaos and possibly a civil war in which a new dictator emerges. We attacked the country, so we do have responsibilities toward their people. Then again, Iraq is sovereign now and has an elected government, so we are no longer an occupying power. Hatred between Sunnis and Shiites has been going on for hundreds of years and with all the bloodshed, the dead, the millions of refugees, it will likely take years if not decades for them to sort it all out and emerge as a functioning democracy where everyone can live in peace. Hopefully, we won’t have to stay there that long.
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GiantkillerRe: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
Personally I leave the politics to the politicians. The only wagon I would jump on is the one pulled by the Budweiser Clydes Dales. (Probably spelled that wrong)
Re: Politics & History – that old taboo topic!!
quote Giant Killer:Well, well, well, what do we have here? :):Hmmm, hmmm, I wonder if it’s a bit presumptuous to assume that every single anti war protester is dumb and ignorant and only jumps on a bandwagon? I’m sure a number of them do, but then so do some of the people who are feverishly pro-war, so there are ignorant guys in both camps. In fact, jumping on a bandwagon is pretty much what got us into this mess in the first place. People were panicky because of 9/11, so when they were told how dangerous Saddam was supposed to be, they all went with it and decided we absolutely had to attack Iraq.
But now that we’re in this mess, question is how to get out. I’m divided here, as it seems that pulling out all the troops could indeed lead to more chaos and possibly a civil war in which a new dictator emerges. We attacked the country, so we do have responsibilities toward their people. Then again, Iraq is sovereign now and has an elected government, so we are no longer an occupying power. Hatred between Sunnis and Shiites has been going on for hundreds of years and with all the bloodshed, the dead, the millions of refugees, it will likely take years if not decades for them to sort it all out and emerge as a functioning democracy where everyone can live in peace. Hopefully, we won’t have to stay there that long.
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GiantkillerHeh… The Iraqi government couldn’t govern a kindergarden class. I don’t expect anyone to fully understand that who hasn’t been there since the government was voted in, but trust me… It’s pretty bad. It gets talked up a lot on the news that the government and military is strong because that’s how we make it play out when cameras are around, but trust me… That’s not the reality of the situation.
quote BradM:Personally I leave the politics to the politicians. The only wagon I would jump on is the one pulled by the Budweiser Clydes Dales. (Probably spelled that wrong)Haha… Politicians point, I shoot.
J-
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