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We had an interesting scenario today at training. The question arose about what to do if someone grabs you around the throat with a bar-arm type choke and, at the same time, attempts a gun grab.
My thinking was that the immediate danger remains the gun grab and thus must be addressed first. Pinning the gun in the holster, either on the gun or over the bad guy’s hand, seems to be the first line of defense. The choke is not as much of a real threat as it’s being done with only one arm. Tucking the chin defeats a lot of that one. So now the question is how do you go on the attack?
My answer was to drop my weight down and take the bad guy over my shoulder by bending forward quickly. This results in an interesting moment on the ground, but it seemed to work out ok. Things get a little more interesting when the bad guy uses the bar arm to pull you backwards while attempting the gun grab (also this seemed more realistic). It seemed that I needed to get a leg hook in so that I’d stop the backwards momentum with that attack.
I’d love to get your thoughts on this matter. Thanks in advance!
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
Hey Steve
Kirsten just BBM’d me saying she will be at a computer soon to answer your question.
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
quote stevetuna:So now the question is how do you go on the attack?My answer was to drop my weight down and take the bad guy over my shoulder by bending forward quickly. This results in an interesting moment on the ground, but it seemed to work out ok. Things get a little more interesting when the bad guy uses the bar arm to pull you backwards while attempting the gun grab (also this seemed more realistic). It seemed that I needed to get a leg hook in so that I’d stop the backwards momentum with that attack.
Yeah great question. I agree that the immediate threat is the gun grab. CJsDad and I chatted for a sec about this and we agree that it seems to make more sense to secure the weapon as you said, then pluck with the other hand and “spin” outward while continuing to secure your weapon. If there is a strong pull, then you really need to spin and burst in. Remember they are also moving backward…so we are likely not talking about a running movement. Then attack with combatives, disengage and create safe seperation then escalate your use of force if you so chose to (yada-yada disclaimer) and in line with policy and procedure (yada-yada more disclaimer)… 😉
I am not a fan of it going to the ground unless it’s a MUST.. and I am not sure about flipping them judo style over the shoulder…I worry about balance and ending up face down with the attacker now on my back- if I am even reading your post correct. (I just came from spending the day with my mom, so my brain has turned to mush- luv you mom!)
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
I should add that CJsDad had a really good suggestion that I really like which is to do all the same but after the pluck is made, tuck the chin and add combatives (with the hand not covering the gun) similar to choke pluck from behind.. .groin strike, elbow, spin inward then do the rest….
I am excited to try these with Oneness when I get to class tonight!!
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
My hamstring likes your thinking on this a lot more than the toss over the shoulder technique. My thinking with the choke is that it’s not an effective threat with only one hand (arm) involved.
We’ll do some testing on this tomorrow too. Please post your thoughts after discussing with Oneness.
Thanks to all.
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
:disclaimer: I’m not an LE
If I may humbly propose a solution here is what I was thinking broken down.
Scenario:
Standing in FI position attacker comes from behind.
His right hand hits my holstered weapon, his left cross faces me from behind in a bar hammer style choke. Pressure is from his forearm bone on my windpipe.Defense:
Stepping to my right I immediately and simultaneously drop weight and base while my right hand slams down capping weapon in holster.My left hand swings back over my right shoulder hoping to catch his eyes as I burst plucking downward.
Continuing with the momentum from the pluck I shift my hips to the right as I groin strike.
Recoil with the left I strike with my elbow point into his solar plexus recoil into vertical elbow aimed at his chin recoil as I step with my left foot into transitional hammer fist to the side of his face.
I disengage to safe distance and move to a higher level of force.
**Combatives are similar to choke from the side or behind. My hand never leaves my duty weapon my feet and my hips are turning me into him as they are turning my weapon side away from BG.
At least that what makes sense to me 🙂
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
I like that defense, Sean. Interesting to note that when we did this live with no prior discussion, I was completely focused on the weapon and not the arm around the throat.
I didn’t think at all about attempting to pluck with my free (left) hand (I’ll take my beating now…). My attacker was bigger and stronger than me (not hard to find but exactly what we’d want to test this with). As my chin came down and my shoulders came up and my base dropped, I felt his center of balance was lost. That’s why I took him up and over.
This left him with his head near my feet and his feet safely away. My gimpy ass fell down as my hamstring took a break, but other than that, it seemed to be a pretty good defense.
Having said that, I’m all over the suggested techniques tomorrow afternoon!
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
Well I just tried my way and I think I’m wrong, Im going to play with it tonight with people smarter then me. 🙂
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
As Neil Young once said, “So the powers that be left me here to do all the thinking…”
I live by the adage that if you’re not smart, you need smart friends. Thus, I turn to you guys!
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
IMO, Using CJ’sdad scenario,
dropping into a good base while trapping my weapon/attackers hand,
tuck my chin and pluck with left hand, then deliver elbow strikes with left to the stomach or face if available then spin to the right while creating distance.will try it in class….
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
quote CJs Dad:Well I just tried my way and I think I’m wrong, Im going to play with it tonight with people smarter then me. 🙂CJsDad,
That’s my fault… You bounced it off of me and I said it sounded fine. I should have stopped what I was doing, put my full attention on it and worked through the situation prior to asking you to post. Besides, my mom probably would have gotten an HUGE laugh out of watching me do that defense with my imaginary partner in the middle of the mall (especially when “Paul Blart-Mall Cop” came to take me away)! I know you are not LE, but I do value your opinion and insight. I also know that Jon and Darren speak highly of you- ’nuff said IMO.Steve & Everyone else,
You know I really appreciate that you guys post these questions. I would encourage you to create more of them on this LEO private thread. I think that this is such a great place to work through the various scenarios. We get to see the thought process, the pros and cons, and get feedback from each other.Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
You know I have given this thread some considerable thought and I really do feel that using the defense for “hostage with a knife” makes the most sense still. Regardless of a knife or an arm-bar do the pluck and pivote, being aware of your firearm as you do so then delivering the knees and combatives.
I honestly think that treating it as if its a knife attack keeps you in line with using one defense for as many attacks as possible.. K.I.S.S.
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
after actually trying it in class tonight I have changed my thoughts and think trapping the weapon and plucking the arm across throat, then turn into them is the best option.
I tried to utilize elbows with my left but they were just able to reapply the choke again……
Re: Question about gun grab w/ choke from behind
Just took a look at this –
Lets analyze – Whats the most immediate danger? How do we address that without making things worse? What do we do about subsequent dangers? We need to stick to principles and (as much as possible) make it consistent with the rest of the system.
My thoughts are very similar to the above. The most important thing is to secure your weapon. So cover and drop your weight. Now, where is the weapon being taken? Most likely backwards, so I would then turn into the attacker by going to the right. Now, trying to slide your Sam Browne in between you will be VERY hard because they are probably close up on you and the arm around your throat secures you to them fairly well for the moment. I would treat it more like headlock from behind where you aggressively drive backwards with your shoulder into them (consider it the first attack if you will.) I would drive my weight through them and try to get them off balance or at least concerned about it. This should lighten the choke somewhat. I think the aggressive turn will do most of the work but if you feel secure with the weapon control, then use the off hand to pluck. From there the fight is on. Attack like your life depends on it – CAUSE IT DOES! Make separation and go to higher force. This is a deadly force scenario so you are all in for anything as far as force options and combatives.
Just my 2 cents, but all in all tough situation.
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