Home Forums Krav Maga Worldwide Forums Law Enforcement & Military LEO Private Forums Standing control of an active subject question

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  • #33514
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Ok, so this is something that came up during some UoF training i went through recently. If i am engaged with an active subject, what would you recommend as the best hold to control them while standing to deliver combatives? Normal KM would be to use normal side control,holding one arm and shoulder, with a forearm on their chest to prevent a takedown. The concern with this, is that in full kit, i have plenty of things for them to grab and pull at, like the quick release on my vest, my inflatable flotation, my camelback hose, not to mention all the goodies on my belt. Would a double underhook be a better option here? Or is there a way to keep their other arm from being a problem? I personally like the traditional side control, as it sets you up for good strikes and takedowns, so being able to modify it would be preferred.

    Thanks

    #85759
    don
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    I don’t have as much gear on as you but I also do have quite a few things a suspect could grab for on me too.

    Is the normal KM technique you’re talking about what I refer to as a “modified clinch” position? E.g. I’m righty – my gun hand/arm is bent at 90 degrees at the elbow, forearm against the right side of the suspect’s neck/jaw, hand hooked over the trapezius/neck, elbow down; my left hand thumb up pressing against the outside of his right elbow, pushing it into the side of rib cage; right leg back, left leg forwards. If so, my left hand is preventing his right hand from reaching/grabbing, my right forearm is preventing his left hand from reaching/grabbing and/or him “turning the corner” on me (and this is in conjunction with all the combatives I’m delivering while in this position). I also have the choice of spinning him and disengaging, sprawling, and/or “matadoring” him. If I’m able to soften him up a little or put some lag time into his computer, me personally, I might also puter kepala him and follow up from there too.

    If that position doesn’t work for you, see if you can modify it – if not, then abandon it and see if you can come up with something better.

    Double underhooks are ok but where are you going to go from there? IMO, double underhooks is not a real good position from which to do striking and your head/face is exposed. I teach that the “modified clinch” position is a transitory one, same as double underhooks – i.e. I’m there temporarily on my way to something else.

    I’m not sure what “traditional side control” is and I’m not sure which arm you’re referring to as the “other arm”…

    #85762
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    Yeah Don, that position is exactly what i was referring to. I didn’t really get a chance to play around with it, as I’m in a more structured “do it out way” kind of DT training environment right now. It was something I mentioned to an instructor, and he listed those possible hazards to that position. I wanted to know if it worked fine for you, or if you had to do something else to maintain good weapon/gear retention.

    #85767
    don
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    I’ve played around with it a little bit. I’m not 100% effective with it (but I’m also not going 100% against my partners either) but it makes a lot more sense for my ROE than say a classic muay thai clinch and I’m comfortable teaching it as a modified clinch and temporary control position.

    I definitely recommend playing with it and exploring variations. One variation is to underhook the suspect’s close arm and lift/scoop it up instead of pinning it to his side (similar to the control/kneeing position for gun threat from the rear or low upward knife stab). If you use that one, it’s much easier/quicker to go to a puter kepala if you choose to make that a follow up.

    For me pinning or scooping will depend on how I get into that position and where the suspect’s arms are at that time. Besides the weapon threat defenses and self-defense techniques that flow you into that position, I also teach my partners that you may find yourself there on offense (e.g. punches/elbows transition into knees, etc) or defense (e.g. defending a wide/looping punch, an upper body grab, a high/mid-high tackle, etc). If you use a “fence” (you can Google/YouTube “geoff thompson fence” – what I call my non-threatening ready or non-threatening fighting position), I think you can find yourself in a modified clinch position pretty naturally…

    Typically, I’m trying to do the most damage in that position in the least amount of time. All else being equal, I’d rather not stay there (btw, I don’t know of any 100% foolproof technique/position in that range) but I also don’t want to release too soon either. If/when I decide to disengage, I prefer to either push/slam them straight down or matador/spin them and pivot to stay facing. As a general rule, I try to avoid frontal disengagements. I’m only going empty hands until I can (safely) get to something better…

    #85770
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    Yeah, as I said, I haven’t really had a chance to play around with it yet. We did some Redman scenarios, and both instances where I got hands on, it started with me getting shoved up against a wall, clinching, and us going to the ground. Obviously, that’s not where I intended things to go, but I ended up on top when I got there, and kneed the **** out of the roleplayer and gained compliance.
    It’s a whole different animal wrestling around with someone while wearing level 4 body armor, helmet, and full LE belt. And those damn Redman suits don’t give the best representation of targets, not to mention that they hide more subtle threat indicators. I always feel like a fumbling idiot dealing with the guy in the Redman suit

    #85772
    don
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    Agreed! It’s bad enough moving around/fighting in my standard patrol wear/rig. It’s also bad in my riot response team gear or when I’ve got my active shooter rig and AR. It would be even worse than that in full swat or military load out configuration like you’re talking about! One good thing about my response gear and your full kit – you can give one hell of a head butt with a ballistic helmet!

    IME, it can be very difficult to employ the Modified Clinch position while being shoved up against a wall. The MC works better for me out in the open, when I can create some space between our hips and there is room to pivot and move. Up against a wall, depending on where my arms are in relation to the BGs and our relative head levels (and besides getting violently dirty/nasty), I might either try for underhooks to get to a perpendicular side position or a shrug and duck under to the back OR I might try to push head down and away, etc… kind of along the lines of what you see in the UFC when one fighter is pushing another one up against the fencing.

    Have you guys tried the Blauer High Gear suits? We’ve got a few of those and a bunch of FIST suits. The Blauers are more mobile and agile. The FISTS (even the lightweight models) aren’t as free moving but offer much more protection for impact weapons and full on punching/kicking/etc. When it comes to helmets, I like the REDMAN brand with face cage. Gloves – I’m either wearing MMA gloves or hockey/lacrosse gloves. There are a few MMA training camps that use Blauers or parts of Blauers for sparring practice…

    #85774

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    Mike,
    I use our side control, but overhook with the support arm and deliver knees to the head, while controlling the head with my primary hand. I’ve never had anyone mount a successful gun/equipment grab while I kneed their face. It also sets you up to use a neck crank sit-down or even to use a throat/face control to blast through them so your stick doesn’t get piled up behind you in the doorway. It also allows an easy transition to softer control techniques if necessary. That being said… Unconsciousness is always the best compliance.

    #85779
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    quote Jeremy Stafford:

    Mike,
    That being said… Unconsciousness is always the best compliance.

    That being true, our UoF policy doesn’t really accommodate it too well. We also can’t put a knee in someone’s face, at least at my current understanding of the policy. That is largely the problem, is that our policy is so vague that people feel they have to use the BS taught defensive tactics in order to stay out of trouble. They get mentally worked up that they can’t deliver a knee strike to anywhere but the thigh or ribs. However, from what I have been told, I can utilize any punch, kick, or strike to any soft, meaty portion of the body, meaning no spine, head (still unclear if that makes the face off limits), or joints.

    It’s crap like our UoF policy that makes me want to get out and do LE with another agency that actually gives a **** enough to keep up with case law.

    #85780
    mdeaneuscg
    Member

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    Oh, and Don, I know some of our units played around with the Highgear suits, but I think at some point someone made the decision that the only authorized UoF training suit would be the Redman. My guess is it was an officer that’s never done UoF training

    #85785

    Re: Standing control of an active subject question

    So, If you have a ****bag grabbing at your lifesaving gear, you are unable to use deadly force? I don’t know any LE Agency that has ROE’s that restrictive. If you’re tied up with him, he was obviously grabbing at your lifesaving equipment and you were obviously scared that he was going to try and take that piece of lifesaving equipment which would then be used to cause death or serious bodily injury to you or others in your team. Right?

    Most agencies that choose the Redman over the FIST do so because of hygiene/Decon concerns.

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