Stick against the throat from the front pinned

[giant-killer]

I know I asked this years ago, but I thought it was an interesting problem and it fits in well here: What would you do if a guy used a stick and pushed it against your throat, pinning you against a wall with that stick? The stick, in this case, would be in front, he’d hold both ends of it and just leans forward, all of his weight on the stick and thus on your throat.

I think pulling on one end of the stick, pushing on the other to create an opening could work, then turn the head to the side, to at least relieve pressure. If possible, squat down and slip out your head. Of course, there’d be counters available, his groin might be open for kicks. If you can’t get past the stick, you could kick the groin, hoping to weaken him. If you can reach, striking the throat or the eyes may also work to create some space. You could also take one of your arms and raise it straight up in the air, underneath the stick (against the wall, in line with your neck), so that now the weight is not just on your throat, but also partially on your arm, which should relieve pressure. You might even be able to let your arm drop from there, pushing the stick down just enough to get it off your throat. Once the pressure is gone, you can go for counters. Or you could even do this with both arms simultaneously, raise them, then drop them down, then kicks as counters.

Any other ideas?

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Giantkiller

[cjs-dad]

great question for a new topic!

[giant-killer]

Yeah, I thought so, too, after I wrote it, then was too lazy to copy and paste. Thanks for the help. 😀 Let’s see what people will come up with…

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Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Re:

quote \”Giant Killer\:

I think pulling on one end of the stick, pushing on the other to create an opening could work, then turn the head to the side, to at least relieve pressure.
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Giantkiller

Agree to this point, though I might consider pushing one end over the top of my head (think of sliding it across your ear – yes, ouch but better than being dead). Or, why not trap a leg (maybe even forget the stick with one hand and trap an arm too), buck, and roll? Now you have a weapon and an advantageous position … Imagine the damage you could do to a face and neck with a stick held by two hands and full weight on it (Whomp, whomp, whomp!!! 😈 ). Kinda like a long gun defnense from the front, using the gun as a blunt object.

Also might consider striking the elbows from behind (if they’re locked) to \”loosen him up.\” This causes tremendous pain as it hyperextends the elbows – might even be enough to get free …

[kmsf]

simply turn around… oh crap now you are facing the wall and he is behind you with a stick. Ask for a do-over. 🙁 Boy, this theory needs some work. 8)

[cjs-dad]

Re:

quote \”KMSF\:

simply turn around… oh crap now you are facing the wall and he is behind you with a stick. Ask for a do-over.

Now THAT was funny… \”excuse me sir can I ask for a do-over\”

[giant-killer]

kravjeff,

Sounds as if you are talking about being pinned while on the ground? I actually meant standing up, but on the ground it’s even worse I suppose.

Hitting the elbows could work (even standing). From a standing position I’m thinking, if i raise both of my arms straight up, close to the wall, so that they are now in between the stick and the wall, next to my neck, it should relieve pressure. Then from there, I could just let my elbows crash down onto the stick, pushing it down toward my chest. I may still be pinned, but the pressure should be gone and I could do counters from there, kick to the groin etc. I could also try to grab the stick from that position, push on one end, pull on the other, creating space to slide out. Maybe I could even create leverage on his wrist with the stick, by pulling it up and over his hand on one side, forcing him to let go and then using the stick as a weapon against him. Haven’t tried this yet, all just in theory. 🙂

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Giantkiller

[kravjeff]

Must not have read the initial scenario accurately … I was envisioning being pinned on the ground – Sorry for the confusion.

Agree that leverage to disarm would be a good idea – Also knees and shins (or kicks, or thumbs in eyes, ear torn off; you get the picture) to get off the wall/create space, then escape or destroy …

BTW … Where did the \”simply turn around\” theory come from? I don’t see it here.

[giant-killer]

I think getting at least one arm in there could definitely help to relieve some pressure. I know there is a ground fighting technique against a person trying to drive the blade of his arm across your neck into your throat. You do something very similar, get your own arm in front of his and simply push his arm down a little. That diverts the pressure from your throat enough, so that his arm on your neck is no longer a threat. This even works against bigger opponents. I’d assume it may be similar with a stick.

On the ground, if he pins you with a stick, I suppose you could also get your arm in front of the stick and push it down just enough to relieve the pressure. Then you could try to buck your hips, getting him off balance, try to take him over, if you can’t, try the elbow escape to get him in the guard and then try to push him away with your legs. At least you know that while he is holding the stick, he can’t punch you. He may exert a lot of energy trying to choke you, not realizing that you are defending and are not feeling too much pressure anymore. So, if you are unable to get him off you right away, there’s a chance he’ll tire out. But if you keep bucking and squirming, I suppose escape should be possible, as it would also be hard for the attacker to keep perfect balance with all of his weight pressing forward, onto the wobbly stick, while you are moving.

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Giantkiller

[johnwhitman]

Sorry I haven’t posted my opinion. I was on vacation. It’s a good topic.

The main thing I would add to GK’s initial suggestion is to turn your head/neck so that he’s not crushing your throat. If the bar is pushed against one of your carotids, it’s not going to be comfortable, but you should still be able to function. The DISADVANTAGE of the bar is that, unlike hands around your neck, the bar can’t stop your neck from turning.

My own initial reaction is to treat it a lot like headlock from behind (even though the attack is from the front). Pluck with both hands on one side of the bar, turn your chin, and slide out. You can use the outside shoulder to help lift the stick on that end, facilitating the escape.

If I had time to think in the moment, I might try to slide out laterally, rather than downward, to avoid scraping my ear off…but the truth is, under stress, I’d probably do a motion very similar to headlock/behind.

[giant-killer]

Hey, John is back, cool. 😀 Hope we all didn’t ruin the forum too badly last week… 8)

As for doing the headlock from the side defense, could it happen that maybe the wall could get into the way a little bit as you are trying to turn your shoulder in? What counters would you use after sliding out? Would you be to the outside of the attacker’s arms afterwards? Is there a way to grab the stick and get it out of his hands, then use it as a weapon? It seems as if your back might be turned to him for a moment as you are trying to slide out, would that be a problem?

What would you do if you are on the ground and an attacker is mounted, pinning you with a stick from that position? Just plucking and sliding your head out seems to be harder from there, but one would have the hips to buck him off and get him off balance.

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Giantkiller

[cjs-dad]

What about one up one down after turning your face to the side?

To much strength against strength maybe. And that would break one of our principles and the GK ìwould this work for a smaller personî rule

[giant-killer]

Hmmm, maybe it would work if you do it quickly. Two opposing forces, one pulling down, the other pushing up. Done quickly, it could give you some space and you may not need to push it up very high to slip your head through. Maybe you could even continue pushing upwards and pulling down on the other side, like steering a wheel, at some point forcing him to let go then using the stick to counter. In theory… 🙂

Pulling one end of the stick forward, the other back may be simpler to do, he might not be able to resist that motion, because all of his weight is resting on the stick and if you push and pull he is likely to lose at least a bit of balance, giving you a chance to slip out.

I’m thinking pushing one end forward, the other back may even be more effective than a pluck on one side, as with the pluck you may pull the stick further down instead of forward, which might get it off your throat, but would still trap you against the wall. But it would probably be the most instinctive thing to do.

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Giantkiller

[cjs-dad]

I donít think you could GK.. remember the ìmust be able to be performedî principle of KM. This would be a strength against bearing down on you force.

I think the best you could hope for would be leverage.. and that would assume if on the stick you were able to get your hands outside his. As if his hands were close to your throat on both sides of the stick then you would have leverage if yours grabbed close to the end as possible and one hand goes up the other down. His force would be concentrated forward yours would be moving on a vertical plain.

In this situation the immediate danger would be on the throat cutting off your wind so the head must move tucking the chin the minute the hand is raising one side.

So the way I see it in my minds eye

Left hand snakes up palm out close to your chest right hand does same. Left hand pushís up chin tucks and turns to left. Right hand pulls down driving the stick into mid section or groin of attacker while your stepping out.

Make sense?

[giant-killer]

I’m assuming that he would probably grab the stick at both ends, rather than closer to the middle, so I don’t think there would be space for me to grab the stick near the end and create leverage that way.

I can see your defense working, I would just tuck the chin immediately, before even sneaking the arms in, because the pressure on the throat is the most immediate danger. Once your head is out, would you then push the end of the stick that is up straight forward, trying to hit him with it and/or get it out of his hand? How would you strike to the groin? Hmmm, rereading… okay, so once the stick is above your head, you would then push it forward, into the groin? I’m wondering if you couldn’t create leverage from that position if you push the high end of the stick straight forward, into his face (sort of like rifle defense) and pull on the other end? Does sound like more strength would be required for such a move, so maybe pushing back with one hand, pushing forward with the other would be simpler to do.

Here’s what I see: I’m pinned. First of all, I turn me head to the side to relieve pressure on the throat. Could be either way, but let’s say to the right. I sneak up both arms close to the wall, left palm facing the wall, but behind the stick, right palm facing away from the wall, in front of the stick. Then I push back with my left hand and simultaneously push forward with my right, which should get the assailant a bit off balance and make the left end of the stick hit the wall, while the right end is pushed forward to create an opening. I can then slide my head through the opening, ducking down just a bit to accomplish this, then emerging on the other side and go for counters.

If that doesn’t work, I can stab both of my arms into the air, alongside the wall, so that they are now next to my neck, relieving pressure. Then I could use my elbows/arms to push the stick off my throat and counter with kicks and the like, hoping to weaken him and get off the wall. But in most cases, the first method should work. In theory… 🙂

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Giantkiller

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