Home Forums Krav Maga Worldwide Forums KM Techniques & Krav Maga Books Stick against the throat from the front pinned

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  • #55900
    giant-killer
    Member

    Okay, two more things I thought of:

    First of all, I think I understand the headlock defense better now for this situation. You would pluck down on one end, which would make the other end of the stick rise up, so you could then slide out that way? Basically, the opening would be behind you, right?

    Also, I was thinking, maybe one could do the two motions of pulling back and forward and down and up in quick succession. So, let’s say you don’t do a pluck, but instead you push the left end of the stick back, the right forward. This should be hard for the attacker to resist, since his entire weight is balanced on your throat. It would get him off balance, his right arm would crash into the wall and his left would be pulled forward. He’d probably be weak at that moment in time. So, if you did this, then immediately pulled the stick down on your left and pushed up on your right, he might not be able to stop your motion. Once one end of the stick is up and one down you can slide out easily, plus it’s sort of like rifle defense at that point. His arms are almost crossed, which puts stress on his wrists and makes him weak. So, one could hit him with the top of the stick, then do a takeaway, just as in rifle defense. Of course, as always, in theory… 🙂 Have you done rifle defense CJ’sDad?

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55904
    cjs-dad
    Keymaster

    Yes but I wouldnít say I was fluent or comfortable with them yet. That particular part of KM is still very new to me.

    Knife, stick, handgun no problem.. long rifle not so much

    #55905
    giant-killer
    Member

    Don’t worry, you’ll get used to them fast. The takeaway would be similar to taking a stick held with two hands (which is why I thought of it in this context). Basically, using leverage to take it.

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55907
    mike-g
    Member

    My thoughts were to turn the head and pluck straight down on one side to create an avenue of escape. You have to be quick with this because your in the perfect position for the attacker to basicaly buttstroke you in the head or poke/gouge you in the eye or face with the end of the stick as you make your escape. Well I tried it for real with a person of about 220 lbs pushing a metal pipe as hard as they could with me against a brick wall. My hands automaticaly went the pluck position but not to one side. They went to the inside of his hands like I was doing pull-up . The pipe was so deep into my throat all the intial pluck did was let me be able to turn my head to the side to alleviate the pressure on my throat and put it on my neck. That was a position I could fight from. I could kick to the groin, knee to the stomach or sternum, eye gouge…etc…then I could pluck the second time with both hands to one side and escape. There is noway without practice that I could naturally initially pluck to one side like an armbar choke because the urge to just get the pipe off my throat and get air is so great. At least for me it was alot worse than a Two handed choke,RNC or an Arm Bar choke.

    #55929
    giant-killer
    Member

    Hmmm, interesting. We actually worked on this with John in the garage yesterday. There wasn’t any set KM technique for this yet and we were all invited to make up our own defenses.

    Several people seemed to have the reaction you had, to pull down near the neck. I tried it and even though it was maybe the most instinctive motion, I didn’t feel very strong pulling the stick down from there. But you are right, it may be enough to help you turn your head.

    Once the head was turned, plucking on the side, as in headlock, seemed to work well and it was probably the most instinctive motion. The problem was that it left you in a bad position after the initial defense, turned sideways, almost away from the attacker, with few good counters to give. Also looked like the attacker could give a huge right punch to the side of your chin and you might have a hard time deflecting it, because of the way you are standing and because your hands are still holding the stick.

    Standing in that position, it seemed as if the attacker’s arms were almost crossed and I thought maybe a type of takeaway should be possible, but it didn’t really seem to be.

    I also tried the other things I suggested before, for example raising both arms alongside the wall, then coming down with both elbows giving counters. It worked fine once the arms had been raised and were coming down, but the hardest part was getting both arms into position. I could do it, but not very fast and the bigger guys weren’t able to do it at all, their big arms just didn’t fit into the small space between the stick and the wall.

    Raising just one arm, then doing something similar to choke against the wall also worked sort of and it was easier to get one arm in than two, but it was still hard for many and also wasn’t a very instinctive motion.

    The one I kind of liked was one where you turn your head to the left, then grab the stick at both ends (as close to the ends of the stick as possible, preferably behind the hands of the attacker, for best leverage). Then pull the right end of the stick up, the left down, once the pressure is relieved you could even step to your right a little, giving you more power and it could even give you a chance to twist the attacker’s arms enough for you to take the stick.

    I did this with a pretty big guy and it worked well, I didn’t need much strength at all. I also thought it left me in a better position for counters than the headlock pluck. However, as John pointed out, doing this is not the most instinctive thing to do and it may be better to adhere to KM principles and use the most instinctive movement, which may be the headlock pluck, then escape.

    There was one guy, who did the pluck you described, pulling down by the neck, then turning his shoulder forward, which seemed to leave him in a slightly better position than the headlock pluck, however I’m not sure such a move would work well for a smaller person such as myself.

    So, I suppose it’s between the headlock pluck (most instinctive, works well for small people, but leaves you in a bad position for counters) vs grabbing the stick at both ends and twisting it (not as instinctive, works for smaller people, might enable you to take the stick and use it as a weapon and leaves you in a slightly better position for counters).

    Raising the arms alongside the walls may be a third alternative, but only works for some people and would be the hardest to pull off.

    So, I suppose the headlock pluck came closest to KM principles and worked okay, but I’m not sure it’s the official technique yet. Maybe we’ll experiment some more. 😀

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55934
    mike-g
    Member

    I think the pluck would be able to work with a smaller person because it’s not a strength thing. It’s like the two hand choke from the front. It’s not strength vs strength to totally remove the choke as much as it is the quick motion (pulling down) allowing you a little space to turn your head to alleviate the pressure off your throat and put it on your neck. Here I was just looking for the most Krav like thing. I’m big and strong so for me I could just do a push kick and with the wall against my back(and nothing for him to brace against) I could launch the guy away from me like I was doing a one legged leg press. I know thats not going to work for everybody because of physical or strength limitations. So I looked for what was available if I was unable to do a push kick. There were several techniques you can use to soften them up before you escape. Kind of like a gun or knife technique. You redirect, control, attack, all before you eventually take away the weapon. (acronym R.C.A.T.) I applied something similar. Redirect…Redirect the choking object off your throat with the pluck and get it on your neck
    (my head was turned to the right)….Controlled the left arm at the elbow by pulling down at the elbow (kind of like how you do from a choke from the full mount..sort of a one handed pluck) you have a good bit of room for combatives now….Attack…I had palm heel strikes…knees…foot stomps..eye gouges…front kick to the groin…uppercuts…even had a #6 elbow by accident one try when my left hand slipped off his elbow. ….Escape…Had my attacks been real then escape may have been as simple as moving sideways or pushing him away from me with my hands then getting out of Dodge…but for the sake of research he still had enough strength in him to hold on to the bar and weather my attack….this is when I did the two handed pluck to the left(my left) side of the bar and escaped punching,kicking, and kneeing as I went. No way to tell if that would be needed after the initial attack before the escape but I threw that in there for safe measure….R.C.A.E.

    It’s hard to describe everything on here but that is the jist of it.

    #55935
    giant-killer
    Member

    Hmmm, not sure that’s the way you meant it, but \”pulling down the elbow\” reminded me of the knife against a wall defense, where you hit the attacker’s arm and make the elbow cave in, which then pulls the knife down, away from you. I wonder if something similar could be done here, hit the arms at the elbow on one or both sides, making his arms bend and loosen the pressure, then maybe counters/escape. Not sure, new thought, needs experimenting… 🙂

    As for the pluck at the front of the neck, I guess I might be able to do it strongly enough to relieve some pressure to turn my head. For a full escape I think I would need to pluck at the side (as in headlock) though.

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55940
    mike-g
    Member

    Re:

    quote \”Giant Killer\:

    For a full escape I think I would need to pluck at the side (as in headlock) though.

    Yeah….everything else I wrote was leading up to the escape…going straight to the escape (if possible) would end up like you and I said earlier. You would be in a terrible position for a counter attack by the assailant. Either by fist, knee, or the stick/bar. The attack by the defender is to soften up the assailant for the escape. I would imagine GK because of your size you would probably have more combatives available to you than I do, or maybe more maneuverabilty. I know a kick to the groin from me was too close to my knee where you might be able to get more of your shin in there for a more effective outcome.

    #55957
    giant-killer
    Member

    Yes, a groin kick from the wall position worked well for me, especially when I defended by raising both arms and then letting them crash down on the bar. In that case, the attacker was right in front of me and a kick to the groin worked perfectly. Maybe, if you can pluck the bar down from your neck, you could give a similar kick. If you are lucky, it might weaken him enough to release pressure, so you can escape more easily. If a kick doesn’t work, maybe you could give a knee instead? How about plucking with one hand and punching with the other (if he is closer, as you said)? Or you could pluck the stick down, then turn your shoulder forward, then maybe punch (I’m not sure, one of the bigger guys was doing this and it seemed to work for him, I didn’t really get to try it). As a big guy, i’m also wondering if you could just lift the stick upwards, above your head, as in a dead lift, then maybe twist it out of his hands (more of a strength move).

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55961
    mike-g
    Member

    Yeah there were several strength things that I could do but I was just looking for Krav like things that would work for anybody. I didn’t try to dead lift the bar but I probably could. The push kick I did was strength. I could grab the bar and once I could work my shoulders under me right I could bench press the guy off me using strength. I couldn’t raise both arms simultaneously to crash down on his arms or the bar because there isn’t enough space there for my arms to get through. I can knee and did that…it’s just the front kick isn’t that good for me in that position.

    #55962
    cjs-dad
    Keymaster

    I agree Mike

    Iím sure its possible as a strength move but then so are many things. I think its best while reviewing techniques here in the forums that we always consider the original founding principles specifically ìcan this be done by the average personî working from small to big. Then consider things like is it instinctual and is it something that is already in our existing mental arsenal.

    #55963
    giant-killer
    Member

    I agree, still it’s interesting to just toss out ideas. In this case big guys could do several strength moves that I probably couldn’t do, yet I might be able to raise my arms behind the bar, as they are not as big, and thus do a defense a bigger guy couldn’t do.

    Of course, for an ultimate \”official\” defense one would have to find one that would work well for everybody, big and small and would be in line with KM principles. Headlock defense may be it, but we would have to work on some ideas for the counters and how to defend if that big right is coming at you. After the initial defense, I felt like being trapped between two walls, the original one on my right and the attacker to my left, who seemed to completely block my path (especially if it’s a big guy). So, if this defense is deemed the best KM like defense, we should maybe come up with the most ideal counters from that position.

    Should one let go of the stick and just turn toward the attacker? Not so easy, because the stick may block the path. How about twisting the stick out of the attacker’s hands? For some reason, it doesn’t seem to be easy from this position either. Groin kick? Maybe, but a bit of a weird angle. Punches? Hard to throw from that position. Maybe elbows? Hmmm, if one could slip out the head completely, maybe one would be in a better position. I suppose some more experimenting may be in order. 🙂

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55965
    mike-g
    Member

    Re:

    quote \”Giant Killer\:

    Should one let go of the stick and just turn toward the attacker?

    That’s what I did after the initial pluck to get it off my throat and let it rest on the side of my neck. Then I controlled at the attackers elbow. Pulling his elbow straight down (the point of my elbow was pointing straight down at the ground and close to my body when I did this). This semi twists the attackers body to the side your controlling the elbow on and opens up some space. From here I did the combatives (If I wanted I probably could have used the non controlling hand to push the bar off me because now there is less pressure on the side that I’m not controlling because I have twisted the attackers body) because I want to prevent further assault against me as I execute the escape as well as soften him up for the escape.

    #55967
    giant-killer
    Member

    Did the attacker’s elbow stay straight when you did this? Almost like an armlock? Sounds as if that might be the case, because his arm is already twisted a bit due to your initial defense and his elbow might be pointed up.

    _________________
    Giantkiller

    #55969
    mike-g
    Member

    Which elbow? Initially both elbows were pointing outward as he was pushing the bar against my throat. The elbow that I controlled then pointed at the floor (his forearm was against my chest and ribs). The other arm that I wasn’t controlling had the elbow still pointing outward.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 37 total)
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